Good-bye Steemmonsters, I've Had Enough With This Last Tourney Twist (HAPPILY UPDATED!)
UPDATE: Steemmonsters changed their policy and removed the fees for any future Steemmonster tourneys (assuming people have the appropriate cards). This is a wonderful decision and essentially makes this whole post an interesting discussion, but not really applicable anymore.
I applaud Steemmonsters for doing so, it is a credit to them that they reacted quickly and definitely listened to the feedback from many of the people in the comment section.
I will leave the post up so that nothing is hidden, but I wanted to update the facts so it can now be read in proper context.
Original post below:
Man I'm glad this isn't a pay to play system that @aggroed said many many times it was not.
Entry Fees
The larger Steem Monsters sponsored tournaments will have entry fees. The idea is to encourage only serious players to join. The entry fees will be quite small in comparison to the prize pools, and all entry fees will be used to put back into the tournament prize pools in the future.
I love the game mechanics and appreciate the effort to make this a top notch gaming entity. But I gotta tell you, if you plan on charging people to play in the diamond level and also gold foil tourneys to make sure they are "SERIOUS", then you guys must be smoking crack. People have been "SERIOUS" enough to invest hundreds in not thousands of dollars into your "f'ing" cards. And now if I don't pay to enter a tourney, I'm locked out of getting the part of the prize pool that has been promised since day one? (btw, it was originally promised to be 70% of card sales by @aggroed, then later moved way down when they had to put in in writing)
You guys have now officially earned the "Take a great idea and fuck it up award" two times! First by producing so many reward cards that people are using bots to trade them so they can BURN them. What the hell do you plan on doing with the 275,000 Rusty's still yet to be issued???? Then setting up a rule that is so blatantly anti-"anything but hardcore insider", that you have shown yourselves to be stupid at best and greedy pigs at worst.
As you can tell, I have had enough. And for that to happen, you have no idea how bad you must be. So yes I know this is burning some bridges, but the bottom line is you need to know. If that means you consider me not welcome anymore, then so be it.
@yabapmatt, I don't know how much you are aware of the marketing fuckups, but @aggroed has failed miserably in doing his job. I know you guys are partners, but you should take a hard look at all the people that have left. They have left for a reason. They have sold for a reason. They stopped playing quests for a reason.
People like me tried to help you, but you ignore it. You think its only going to get better as you come out with better and better stuff. The problem is you don't understand (or willfully choose to ignore) the fact that "trust" is essential to success in any investment. You think because you say "trust me" that people should.
Well, guess what...
People did (and some still might) trust you... But you are losing that trust with every time you do something foolish like this. For 2 guys that value their company at $10 million, you should take a look in the mirror and see how many people you've pissed off. And rather than ignoring them or dismissing them, you should find out WHY they left. I have enough balls to tell you why, most will just go away quietly. Nonetheless, there are tons of lessons to be learned, and you continue to not learn them because you trust in the few "yes" people that you have around you.
I'm sorry to have to write this, I think both of you tried in your own ways. The mistakes are hard to ignore though, and the tendencies of your marketing department to be "elitist" is too much for me to stay quiet.
Matt, thank you very much for the delegation of your SP for all these months. I think you are a great guy individually, but don't have a handle on this marketing situation. I am ok with you removing the delegation since I don't feel that you will consider me a "good guy" after this. And I wouldn't blame you of course.
ps... I was promised by @aggroed that investors of the cards (equivalent to 500 packs) would be added to the Mavericks a long time ago. It was on "the list" as Aggy said. I invested over $10k in your cards which handily surpassed the 500 packs needed (and in fact bought more than 500 packs through KS too); yet I never got that Maverick status. Obviously I don't give a shit about the vote, but just pointing it out as its just another example of @aggroed's poor marketing. It sends a signal about what he cares about and the LACK effort he makes to make sure ALL of your stakeholders are happy. (which is limited and lip-service and very apparent)
This is a post of a comment I made on SM in response to their new tourney charges.
A player really likes Steem Monsters and decides to pay $3000 for a diamond deck that has a ton of good cards.
They sign up for a tournament. it's a "free tournament"
216 people sign up also sign up. Looks like fun!
However, only 16 of them have the same level deck
200 don't. The other 200 have bronze decks and are hoping by some miracle to get into the top 8 spots that are paid out.
that's approximately 8 rounds of bullshit that has to play out before you're back down to the real tournament of 16 players
that's 8*15 min. That's 2 hours of grinding idiotic games and waiting for people who flee or aren't paying attention. The diamond player is really frustrated because that's 2 hours completely wasted, before they get back down to the real tournament with 16 players in it
So, now they've wasted two hours, and still have the real tournament to play when it could have been over in 40 min or less.
Personally I value the time of someone who has $3000 to spend on a deck more than 60 cents an hour. I expect they will too.
I think you're taking the serious comment in an unintended manner. We're not questioning the seriousness of the diamond player. We're questioning the seriousness of a novice player willing to waste 2 hours of their time and everyone else's time just for the miracle chance of getting a paid spot.
Personally, I think the silver players are going to ask for a 1 steem entry fee before the end of the march because they'll be sick of novice and bronze players wasting their time. Because in that case the silver players value their time over 15 cents an hour, which I'm going to bet they do.
Also, keep in mind we don't keep any of the Steem from entry fees. We're putting 100% back into tournaments or potentially on the main account and using the steem power to continue to upvote players.
Lastly, we're working on an in game currency called Dark Energy Crystals. When it's out the plan is to switch the fee over to an in game currency players can earn through playing, by melting down cards, or by trading on the market. The majority of tournaments we offer won't cost Steem (I'm not going to commit to never charging a steem entry fee as there could be other good reasons to do it).
The DEC can be earned through casual play. The tournaments will continue to have a small cost associated with them, but it isn't in the spirit of nickel and diming mavs and high end players, but it's actually in the spirit of not allowing players with low tier decks and endless amounts of time from trying to win tournaments by attrition. I mean, they can still technically do it. But so far it seems that the silver players realize that it doesn't make sense to put the 1-5 steem into the pot to play in a tournament they can't win. It won't be the case if it's set to free.
You can imply I'm a big, mean, selfish, greedy, asshole, with no marketing skills and a willingness to burn everything to the ground. In the mean time, high level players are going to have short, fun, and financially rewarding tournaments and know that more tournaments are coming.
Best of luck Dave.
As one of those $3k players, I would much rather have my time valued at 60c/hr and other players valued at some non-zero amount than have my time valued at $6/hr and 200 people told they're not serious and don't deserve to play. The more you explain this the worse it gets.
We have always known it was going to turn out this way. They just had to build it on the bodies of the poor first. Rewards in steem monsters are much like food in communist countries. - Not everyone gets some.
"I think you're taking the serious comment in an unintended manner. We're not questioning the seriousness of the diamond player. We're questioning the seriousness of a novice player willing to waste 2 hours of their time and everyone else's time just for the miracle chance of getting a paid spot."
I agree that playing a 2 hour tournament is wasting your time, when you presented the idea of steemmonsters these tournaments were going to be a fantasy style where you pick a lineup of monsters and they auto fight in a tournament. What you made is nothing like what you sold all the early investors. In my opinion saying one thing and doing the opposite is a VALID reason to be upset. Almost every promise made to early investors has been broken.
"You can imply I'm a big, mean, selfish, greedy, asshole, with no marketing skills and a willingness to burn everything to the ground. In the mean time, high level players are going to have short, fun, and financially rewarding tournaments and know that more tournaments are coming."
These tournaments aren't fun, most of the time is waiting and the prizes are tiny.
@aggroed @yabapmatt everyone wants this game to be awesome, but some of us who have supported you since the beginning are getting tired of being intentionally mislead. Making decisions that sell out your early supporters to make a few dollars short term is the history you have made with steemmonsters so far.
Don't you have access to the data to see how big some people's deck are and what level they are on. Instead of limiting by an entry fee why not just have a minimum deck level requirement?
BOOM!!! HEADSHOT!
That would be great but then you couldn't rake people over the coals and take all their money. Steemmonster has been geared towards the people willing to pay the most from the get go. I should have listened and never invested but I wanted to believe.
Hi @aggroed,
I see the point of view from both sides. Having entered the paid diamond tournament over the weekend, I did appreciate not having to spend 2 hours playing in a tournament. I also see the frustration expressed by others because time is a valuable resource and should be considered for all players, irregardless of cardholder classification. The entry fee was selected as the first choice as the barrier for entry. Understandably; decision made and done for the first two weeks of tournaments.
The plan is to then have Dark Energy Crystals as the future entry fee. Could @yabapmatt add ELO ranking as another barrier of entry? A user could only enter a tournament if their current season ranking is equal to or above the tournament league; i.e., only players having reached gold ranking and above could enter the gold tournaments, diamond ranking and above could enter the diamond tourneys. I guess it would be likened to unlocking tournaments as you reach a higher ranking in the season game.
Benefits:
Players are encouraged to level up and play in the season game.
Players in the bronze league would not be qualified to join gold or diamond tourneys; no one's time is wasted.
On the other hand, we are not limiting players from playing in lower level leagues, if they choose to do so. If they have the time or inclination to play in a bronze league (and are in gold or diamond/champion ranking), then so be it.
I see @davemccoy and @rentmoney's perspective on the matter as well because they both have advocated this game from the get-go. They held contests and encouraged others to play because they thought these players would have the opportunity to enter free tournaments down the road. Even I was under the impression that all Steem Monsters tournaments would be free to play. The players they are fighting for are the redfishes and minnows in this community. Yes, they are passionate about the subject but that is because they care about the community and game.
Here is a snapshot of one players SM post earning. Players like @cicisaja have spent hours playing and leveling up their cards to reach gold ranking. They should be able to freely enter all novice to gold-level tournaments without having to use their post earning to pay an entry fee. (I hope you don't mind my using one of your posts as an example @cicisaja -- I haven't been posting so I couldn't use my own.)
I admire you three very much @aggroed, @davemccoy and @yabapmatt. The three of you have been strong advocates of this community, from the smallest fishes to the whales. Let's somehow keep this momentum going with auto-tournaments and not lose the faith of the community.
I'm not a card collector, so don't have a dog in this fight. I am interested in Steem, and Steem Monsters affects it, so pay attention for that reason.
You and I have not agreed on some things in the past, and a similar genesis of this particular issue is apparent to me. You've made statements that proved impossible to live up to, and instead of just saying 'I thought I could do that, but it couldn't be done', you ignore that, and instead have a different conversation. You do that here, and just skip that part.
Is the game just about prizes and payouts, or is there some merit to actually playing?
Just...
IRL sports have playoffs that winnow the field and end up with finals. Rather than simply avoiding 'wasting all that time playing games' to just cut straight to a final and using financial barriers to exclude the poor, I recommend you adopt that mechanism for Steem Monsters. Everybody gets to play at their level, and the financial barrier is effected organically, which prevents many more people from becoming aware of it.
Nothing will kill popularity faster than elitism, because the populace isn't the elite, by definition.
I note that you have been very successful at starting good things up, and then getting good folks in place to run those balls. We all have skill sets, yet I wonder if we really know what they are.
This is an opportunity for you to gain understanding. You are definitely able to create financially rewarding mechanisms, but keeping them financially rewarding requires maintaining the non-financial features of those mechanisms, and I observe your personal focus on finance seems to be getting in the way of that here. Ignoring valid criticisms prevents you from gaining understanding.
I wish you all the best.
I'd like an answer of if I will be able to play if I don't pay the fee (from both you and @yabapmatt). I will wait and give you time to read it and think about it, since @jarvie has told me my methods of going public are not the most effective way to get an answer.
But I do want an answer, so please get back to me and let me know if I can play with NO more investment needed or if my cards aren't enough to enable me to enter those tourneys.
The answer is crucial and revealing and will let me know what happens next.
Technically it's more about aggressiveness in public environment. I use @monsterworld decently often to give very public ideas for issues i see together with creative solutions.
So are you asking that people self-censor themselves and don't share their honest opinions? Because that's not what this platform is about....Some people want it both ways - strong advocates for free speech, and when it doesn't suit them, please don't be aggressive? Do only some people have a right to express an honest opinion on here that's based off their own self-interest? Sometimes it gets to the point where people need to kick up a fuss JUST TO GET HEARD, or they will simply be ignored.
The question I'd like to pose here @aggroed, is around the lower level "free" tournaments. The Novice level, for example, by the tournament blurb, is targetting new or inexperienced players.
Now scrolling through the list of registered players, there are some quite battle-seasoned names in there. Whilst they won't have access to their full high level decks, they will have a big experience advantage. So, what "protection" is on the roadmap for these low level tournaments to ensure that they are winnable by those for which they are intended and not dominated by the big guns?
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I think this is your problem... The ones you and I would think are intended are not the same as what Aggy intends. He is rewarding EXACTLY who he wants to reward, and taking everyone's pool money to do it as well. Every day that goes by without them making adjustments, just tells me truly what their intentions are.
I went all in on this and now I fear I will be giving out handjobs behind the dumpster to pay for my kids' college education now. I am glad someone made out like a bandit. I guess you don't get to the number 1 witness spot worrying about who you step on getting there.
lol. You may still save your dignity. This is just a blip and the market has already improved. Just wait until 'normies' actually discover this game :-P
Thank you for your question, @sparkesy43.
I have never understood why players who have cards of a higher level would be able to or even want to play players who are at a lower level in a tournament.
In the old time jousting tournaments, each entrant had to at least have a good horse, that long jousting thingy and armor. A naked man or woman or someone with just the helmet armor but with a horse would never have been allowed to enter.
Let lower level players play against lower level players so they have a chance to win the lower level prizes and the same for all the levels. Let gold players play other gold players. Let diamond play diamond and compete for the diamond prizes.
That way MORE players, of every different level, have a real chance to enjoy Steemmonster tournaments and perhaps WIN some of the prizes for the level of cards they possess.
IF a diamond level player TRULY enjoys playing at the novice level, then that diamond player can use an alt NOVICE level account to play in the novice tourney I suppose. But even this would be unfair for lower level players who just haven't had the time, money and experience to move up higher.
Why should it be ok for higher level players to clutch away all the prizes at EVERY level, leaving none for the real players who ONLY have cards at each of the lower levels?
Just don't get it.
As @davemccoy suggested, program the tournaments so that players' cards match the tournament level they enter.
I'd have to reread Dave's comments to be sure, so I'll own this other part... let players ONLY enter tournaments that match their cards, period. Bronze level account card holders can only enter bronze level tournaments, NOT novice tournaments too. Gold can enter gold ONLY, diamond enter diamond tourneys ONLY. That way every player can stay in their lane and have a fair chance to earn the prizes allotted to their lane.
This is an appeal for league level programming to be added and for higher level players to give lower level players an opportunity to play their equals in the official Steemmonster tournaments. This will give lower level players a real chance to share in the lower level prize goodies.
I'm sure when tournament hosting is opened up, there will be some other hosts who will allow higher level players to nab the novice, silver and other lower level prizes. ;)
I think what you are suggesting would be great for leagues. Instead of having one main league we have a league for each and every level of play with each account only being allowed to pick one league to participate in per season. The higher the league the better the prizes. For example ... Novice league would have very minimal prizes compared to Diamond league.
However I don't think its a good idea to make those with diamond level cards play diamond level games only and one main reason to this is skill wise not all players who have diamond level cards are diamond level players / Not all players who own Silver level cards are Silver level players. A newbie can sign up to Steem-Monsters today and buy his way into having Silver/Gold or Diamond level cards. It wouldn't be fair to restrict this player to only Diamond level play because they decided they wanted to start with a max deck.
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That makes no sense to me. I have people who spend 50k on a plate to eat with me and I will never know their name.
You should try politics. I have found that when things like this come up the people that are against me usually just commit suicide.
Hi Dave. That's quite a sum you invested. I'm sorry it isn't working out for you. I had considered recently testing the waters, but based on comments in a few posts about how hard it is to get a card that is good I decided not to. This post is an affirmation I made the right choice.
I hope they will choose to think on your thoughts on this, as you have been one of their largest promoters whenever I have checked in on you. You are known here as a man of principle, not prone to being irrational. From others replies here it would seem others discontent reached the breaking point well before yours did.
Hoping they may rethink some of this, but perhaps they are content to have less players (customers) as it seems they are indicating they have to many customers to service, hence the fees to restrict customer behavior.
You summed up in 3 paragraphs what they can't see in many months of people trying to give them the info. You are spot on with your analysis and able to see clearly from literally one post+comments. I wish they would do that too, but based on the past history, I think my words will be dismissed too.
I want to thank you very much for the kind words about me too. It isn't often that someone pays me a compliment like that, and I will certainly take it for sure :) ...
Thank you so much @practicalthoughts for stopping by, for weighing in, and for adding to the conversation in a productive manner! :)
Wow. Glad I loaned out my deck months ago. It is not to late to jump on the latest game Drugwars though. Many regard it as a ponzi scheme but at least they do not charge you to rob people. I have made a shit ton more over there then I have ever thought about making on steemmonsters. they pay me daily. I left steemmonsters when I saw how they were using bots to buy and resell cards. I also hated playing against all the bots that were playing. Sorry to see you go dave. Can we have a mass sell off party? I imagine it will smell like a strip club. the faint essence or broken promises and ruined dreams. I wonder how much my investment has lost over the past. lets try a fun game and see what we all have in it.
!bookkeeping steemmonster
I don't even know if that will work.
!bookkeeping drugwars
haha... I miss your humor DDC... :)
And thank you. ;)
If you think that smells like failure you should be in my shoes.............
And I miss bullshitting with you Dave. You should come over to whaleshares. I have been more active over there for sure.
Please use one of the following keywords after !bookkeeping:
!bookkeeping steemmonsters
Hi @doomsdaychassis!
steemmonsters
Received:
Spent:
Total:
@davemccoy just fucking look at those returns!!!! How are you not happy?
!bookkeeping drugwars
Hi @doomsdaychassis!
drugwars
Received:
Spent:
Total:
First transfer was before 5.84 days.
Your ROI per day is 15.09 % and you are earning approx. 1.12 STEEM per day.
Break even in approx. 0.8 days.
Oh, snap. Look at that. Daddy is about to make a profit.
Holy cow! I do not play games, and I had no idea this kind of money was in this one. If you did this, so did others.
Jaw-dropped.
Oh yes, I'm a small fish in this pond. ;)
Dang! This is small? My son @bxlphabet just started to play and is doing it f2p after the initial $10 for the starter pack. Whatever he looked at made him decide not to buy cards, and now I am so glad! He could never compete with this action.
My rent and wifi are about 100 usd a month in Kuala Lumpur Mayalsia. I'm astounded to see this. but I think the drug wars game is sucking even more money now.
@fitinfun, @bxlphabet is your son?
'Met' him in the Steemmonsters chat on Discord like 2 weeks ago. I was impressed by the way he was standing up for the 'common' people who wanted to play the game in a discussion with someone of whom @davemccoy told me not to start discussions with, lol.
Since I've been working on an experiment on building a starter deck without investing any extra money - only what I can earn on the platform - since a couple of weeks, I've been following up on how he's doing.
It's a small world :0)
Yes, that's my baby! He's 25 and 6'2" now, but still lol. He's a rebel and a protector for sure. He will be the first to stand up for the little guys and has done that since he was very small. I used to get calls from the teachers to tell me to tell him to stop. Yeah - that would work.
Your comment makes me so happy @simplymike! You f2p people need to stick together. I think they need a special place for you in light of the madness.
Lol. Sounds like you did a good job :0)
My f2p account is one by choice. Unfortunately, I have been stupid enough to invest quite some money in the game. By far not as much as Dave, though. I justed wanted to make the statement that they had made it too hard for people without the means to buy their way in to get started. A little naive of me to think it would make a difference, lol. But I've learned quite some things by doing it, one of those was that there are still loads of people with good intentions around here, who are prepared to help when they can.
Of course I did know that, but with everything that has been going on these last couple of months, it's good to be reminded every once in a while :0)
I'm so sorry about the money and so glad you found good people along the way. This is just unbelievable to me. I am way too cheap to ever spend money on a game. I'm an accountant and even if I have money, I am still cheap!
In 'real' life, I am too. If you would have told me 6 months ago I would spend money on an online game, I would have laughed and walked away...
I must admit I was shocked by the number Dave mentioned too, knowing he's not even one of the biggest fish in the pond. Compared to Dave and many others, I'm a very, very small fish, but still...
I consider it to be another lesson learned. Many lessons at once, in this case. :0D
Dave, I'm sorry that I had to read this post (comment). You are one of Steem Monsters staunchest supporter and I still remember the excitement when we first started on this journey together. I would have loved for this excitement to have continued.
There have been many ups and downs through these months and decisions made that could be viewed as good/bad. I'm not excited about the latest unfolding of events myself because I do feel many small to mid-level players are excluded from earning some of their investment back. Firstly, they are limited to a small prize pool and secondly, the chance of winning in the tournaments is slim. In the current scheme of things, not very many will be able to play competitively. People will be disheartened and leave (many have).
Perhaps this is a gaming environment that are for heavy gamers willing to invest. Not being one myself, I don't know either. We're not gamers and don't have the same mindset as others. I know your heart is with helping others being able to play, compete, and earn. They can still play and compete, but it seems earning is harder to obtain. The game is ever-changing and everything is still in trial and error. Auto tourneys just started and rules could change. I don't think having the same 20-40 people entering the paid tourneys would be sustainable, so something would eventually have to change.
One lesson I've learned from all this...we have to learn to trade these cards. Being a HODL'er simply does not work in anything crypto-related.
Yes it saddens me too @beeyou... You are the bestpartnerever and I'm so sorry that it has come to this. I know we've been in there from the beginning as partners and done everything from buying together before there was no stats, to sharing decks to help others play the game. On top of that, we've talked tons of strategies and imagined how the game could improve and grow.
I hate to say it is all wasted, but I think I was wrong. I'm sorry for getting you involved and sorry for having an overenthusiastic influence over people's perception of their credibility. We've all seen the fuckups and I've been the first to say "cut them a break". After all we both have tons of respect for @yabapmatt as a generous individual.
But he doesn't control this part of the company and leaves that all to Aggy.
I completely agree with the 20-40 people in the money while everyone else gradually leaves... I have thought they would listen to people like me and you, but with this new change on fees and the reply from @aggroed to me on their thread, it is clear that it will be a long time until they ever deviate from this course. (if ever)...
I'm sorry for dragging you into this and for being part of you spending right along with me. I made a mistake and for that you will pay along with me. It wasn't my intention and I do feel bad about it.
Thanks for being there though and for being a great friend the whole time here, I too have learned some lessons from this experience and its not all bad. I've learned that you are the best partner anyone could ever have, you pull your weight and even take time off from vacations whenever needed! ;)
Enjoy your evening and have a wonderful week!!!
You have no reason to apologize @davemccoy, to me or anyone. We individually invested time and/or money into SM for our own reasons. You were excited, I was excited, we all were excited at this cool opportunity to be an early adopter. You are not to blame and you did not let anyone down.
As like you, I was surprised when I saw that Steem Monsters had entry fees for tournaments. I had the impression from the start that tourneys offered by SM would be free to play, and only tourneys created by communities would charge as they deemed appropriate. I know the "small" fee is nominal, but there has to be other ways of creating a "barrier of entry". As you already suggested, associating entry with league ranking is one way of doing so. Just like card values go up and down, we've seen game rules also ever-changing. The rules made today will change as the game itself changes. Let's see if this one will change.
You are still my best.partner.ever. I am going to think of you as taking a well-deserved vacation yourself, not of you saying goodbye to this game. Let the game take its course, make mistakes, correct their trajectory, and come back stronger. We've been on this journey from the start, seen ups and downs, and no way am I letting you give up this easily.
I hope to see it change and you are level headed as always... ;)
I would say that as my partner, you are the nice half for sure!
And thank you for the kind words and for the comment about me being responsible, I hope like hell they do the right thing going forward for everyone of us and the community at large.
Have a wonderful day and thanks for giving me a vacation!
I can tell you for sure that you don't want to be on @beeyou bad side. She is a savage.
Now that the floodgates are open...
Normally I love to get involved in games like this, but I stayed away from it completely from day one. Had people from all sides around me pressuring me to get involved. Everyone was doing it. "Just buy a pack to get started". Pressure to buy, or miss out on the mania. Red flag number one.
They had a story-writing contest. That sounded like fun to me also. I seriously thought about submitting ideas, but I didn't. Rule stipulations. Forced to work on a team with other writers I have never met before. How am I going to guarantee that my creative ideas see the light of day in the contest before someone else on my team decides they would rather back-stab me to push their own ideas to the front? What if my team leader is an untalented, foul-mouthed bully the moment he/she realizes I'm better qualified to lead than he is? What if I don't want to use their ideas? What if the whole team thinks I'm an untalented loser, hampering their progress? Isn't there more incentive to work to eliminate your teammates than to work with them (more rewards, easier to write freely)? How would I be guaranteed fair rewards for my time if a teammate is taking most of the credit? Why are writers split into teams writing separate backstories, that might have nothing to do with eachother? How would random backstories ever makes sense with eachother? Wouldn't it be better to have a head designer doing all of this, and divvy out assignments for small guaranteed rewards? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of everyone's time spent writing these stories? All these red flags.
I wanted no part of these rules.
Speaking of rules. Steemonsters seems to love rules and stipulations in their promises, competitions, and games. I guess that's the whole point of it. The business has to be profitable somehow to the developers, and then to players also. Rules are essential to guarantee fairness, like a contract. If I wanted to earn money though, wouldn't it be easier to post a great story, piece of art, or game idea on steemit, or on some other steem dapp? I could even start a free to play game for players to take turns and participate in, and we could reward one another, and that would be an easier business model with limitless potential.
Unlike steem posts which have always been free to interact with, and many dapps that are offering free rewards to simply interact on their systems, I believe the reverse to be true with the steemmonsters. There were things you had to pay for, but also things that would be given for free. Mostly there was the promise of value to be added to special cards. How can they promise that? Will this value ever go up to a level that I deem acceptable in this lifetime? What if something happened to the steem blockchain in the next 5 years, would that affect the value of the cards? Would I be able to play the game with friends online anymore? Will they still be valuable, profitable, and popular? Would they even want to play if the cards became worthless?
Then I saw all the corporatization happening with Steemit Inc showcasing steemmonsters. Community campaigns pushing it to the front to hype up steem. Brand stickers everywhere. Logos showing up in the cover of people's posts in my feed. Do I really want to follow people who suddenly only talk about how great steemmonsters is? Why aren't they sharing the great content they used to share, which made me want to follow them? Something is fishy. I see more videos with the logo. Glowing interviews with the developers only. What were the fans saying, are they not saying something, for some reason? I read about how many cards have been made, and how much steem has been invested into these cards. It's a lot! This is called advertising. It's a not a social movement anymore. It's business. They want my money, and they want me to spread the hype, so they can continue to make money. Big red flag.
There are many free games being made on and off the steemit platform. Is this game really drawing people into getting involved in steem for the exclusive opportunity to play? I'm not sure. How many steem accounts have been set up for players to play steemmonsters, who were not already using steem? How is that going? Are they growing or shrinking in activity from new players being onboarded to steem?
I am more interested in using steem to interact freely with others, without interference, fees, and stipulations. I'm not interested in bringing up my concerns with game designers, who have already thought long and hard about the dynamics of a fair play system. They will not deeply value the concerns of a non-player/non-investor. Any concerns I bring up will probably be perceived as insulting, or a request to re-work the foundational systems of the whole game. Honestly, I can't blame them for that. Shouldn't the developers have already considered these things? They probably have. My words are a waste of breath, except to possibly warn others of potential pitfalls.
Despite my interests in strategy games, competitive games, collecting, art, and creative stories, it seemed from the beginning that my goals and interests never meshed with the goals of steemmonsters.
That's why I never wanted to play steemmonsters or buy a starter pack. Buying a pack is the only way a person can play. It's integral to the game, and reward mechanics. I can think of many easier ways to have fun, and/or make money.
Greetings! @creativetruth
So... I'm just around here... reading and stuff... but DID want to set you straight regarding the yuge writing contest that you spoke of.
No one was forced to do anything. No one was FORCED to work with anyone they didn't know.
ANYONE could have entered the contest, completely alone...and had to work with NO ONE ever.
In fact, my husband and I ( we know each other) decided to enter as a team...and won.
And if you took the time to READ the rules (which weren't much), you would have seen that the individual winners each got a finite amount of $....and teams worked out HONESTLY who should get what. I suppose that's just #faithinpeople. 😍
All that said... many of your concerns DID arise within other groups, but were all taken care of quite diplomatically...aside from one. 🤣 (Some folks will never be pleased...)
I'm sorry you felt you couldn't enter because of confusion. It was a GREAT experience for me.
I try to do my best making sure things are clear, and am SUPER saddened when folks speak on things they aren't so clear on.
So... I was just popping in to 'let you know'... at least on that ONE topic... You were a bit off base.
Hope it helps get some of that icky taste from your mouth. I'm not bad people. Really, go check out my feed. I'm pretty nice...and never controversial. 😍
Keep on Steemin'! 😍 (And keep on carin', as this is why we are here.)
Yes, clearly I did not understand those rules. All I remember was being told by a friend there was a creative writing contest for backstory content, and everyone had to pick a color team. I must have jumped to conclusions about how that would work out. I imagined all these people writing their own stories, and I had no idea if people on my team (my competitors) would be judging my work, or what. Who were the judges? I could have sworn there was some questionable wording (to me) about revisions to each color team's story that would be required, and that concerned me that I might have to change my ideas for the sake of the people on the rest of my so-called team.
Glad you had a good experience. I'm such a stickler for rules, and enjoy contests as long as it's designed to be more fun than obstacles. I run into so many contests on Steemit I never do because people list so many other conditions (resteem, upvote, use my tag, use my logo in the cover, use this title, etc.), I would rather just not be another billboard for sale to them.
OMG! We are the same: I'm such a stickler for rules & I run into so many contests I never do...
Same reasons, all around.
And to be fair, the rules for the writing contest left something to be desired. I may not have entered, but my hubs @chrisroberts was WAY excited about it....and we work really well together. ❤️
In funner news (lol... funner...) I've been doing a weekly Wacky Wednesday post for one of the communities I help with (@helpie). Literally, the easiest thing ever. It's mostly for fun and interaction, rather than... anything of substance. 🤣
For instance, this week, I've requested you 'talk Millenial to me'... use some new slang words in a comment. It's totes hilarious.
Come on by and play if yer bored. 😍
And by the way @carrieallen, thank you for the dose of positivity. It's definitely appreciated, and I love your enthusiasm and compassion. Super duper!
I feel like this is a good representation of me:
Bwahahahaha!
Thanks. 😍
No need for apologies... I'm glad you stopped by and gave your opinions!
First of all, thank you for sharing your honest opinion.
I thought the entry fee for diamond or gold card leagues was a great idea, as it would prevent no-shows and random lucky-draw results due to non-serious players (so some people basically get free bye or win). And 1 or 5 steem would not be too much, as an player/investor who spent a lot already. But I do think you made a valid point, as people may feel different.
I believe that you should get the maverick status(MS) too, given that you spent a lot more than what is needed for the MS. I bought most of the cards via peakmonsters too, but with some luck I bought like 600 packs to get MS status.
I just wonder why the word 'serious' is being used while actually 'with money' is meant?
I know players who are more serious about the game than I am - they're also a lot better at it than I am - still, I can sign up for every tourney I want and get beaten by you over and over again (which actually happens all the time, lol - I'm @monstermother), while they are so much more talented but don't have the means to enjoy that same privilege...
I saw your message about the entry fees on Discord earlier, and I really appreciate your comment. Not many people are brave enough to be willing to take a look at things from a different perspective.
Yes I too hate the use of the word "serious"... Is this not serious enough for @aggroed and @yabapmatt? I mean if I wasn't serious, how the hell did I get all these cards and why exactly can't I enter the tourneys like I was promised?
This is just a portion of my purple deck to show the selenias and only the gold (not the regulars) and only this account as I have many more.
I'm not showing them to brag but to make a point... If I don't pay 5 steem then my cards can't win in the big tourneys as promised... what a kick in my balls this is!
Exactly my point.
I've seen the words 'serious players' so many times, and every time 2 things go through my head: people like you and bee and PK who have spent all that money on cards, and people like Faiyaz and so many others, who are so very talented and good, but don't have the same means to buy theirselves a deck to compete with the best (or richest, I'm all confused about which word would be the proper one to use)
I'm not even sure what the word 'serious' means anymore ...
Yes... I now don't like that word at all, Aggy has ruined it in my eyes... I thought I was serious but now so confused... I'm
seriousnot joking. :DAnd to get to your point, same here... I see the work that people put in to play the matches on those quests now for 2 months. I know how much they were "serious" when they spent their time. I also know they have asked questions and learned lots about the game. I thought they was "serious" when they use their mind to understand how it all works.
I'm with you on the word "serious" meaning willing to pay money, because in my whole life I've never seen all the other things ignored at the exclusion of how much money they have spent/will spend.
now... I'm thinking.. what are you going to do with all those gold Coach...yaaaaayyyy... that's a lot of GOLD FOILS, I ever seen!whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... Golden Selenia!!
lol... :D... don't worry, when I figure out what direction this heads, I will make sure my teammates are helped... I just don't know how some things are going to play out, but either way I will help you (and the teammates). :D
Hahaha, @cicisaja. You literally ALWAYS make me smile, if not laugh out loud. ;0)
We have the right to be entertained in this hard situation @simplymike 😊 all the talks in this thread.. man, never seen a post with such a long comment in it, not even steemmonster's posts or those who mentioned above (though he made it to trending page because he is a maverick😂😂😂😂)... this post remind me to palooza newbie games too😊 but without free cards to win😆
You're absolutely right. And you're doing a great job entertaining me :0)
I don't think i've ever spent so much time in a thread as this one, lol.
And maybe i can give you the Palooza feeling again: I have some spare cards in my account. I'm not using them, so i can just as well share them. All we need to figure out if one of my spare cards would be of any use to you... ;0)
Hello, didn't know that you were monstermother! (If I remember correctly, you actually beat me several times at silver/bronze tourneys)
I agree that there are some players who are talented but do not have leveled up cards. But I guess this is the part we may not agree with: I believe that if someone has underleveled cards for the tourney league level, she should not participate "just to test water" and focus on the right league level tourneys.
We are still in early stage, but I won't be surprised to see 100+ people join for free tourneys, and for gold foil only or diamond level tourneys I certainly would not like to see that unless they actually have cards to compete with.
Posted using Partiko Android
I think @aggroed has successfully convinced people that an entry fee is the way to stop low level decks from playing in high level tourneys. I think its a hollow argument though. The reason is because they can limit a player to participation based on his league level in the quest leagues... If you are a silver league player in that league, why not limit them to jsut the silver league tourneys... They your issue would be solved.
But @aggroed and @yabapmatt aren't doing it that way. Of course they could and it wouldn't break a promise and it would also make everyone much happier. But either they didn't think of it (which I doubt) or they wanted to introduce a "fee" to play. Either way it isn't acceptable to me when it is easy to both:
a) achieve what you want (proper competition) and
b) not break their promises to the investors of the cards.
Again, thanks for your input and for engaging us. I just want you to understand what its like from others who might not be as good as you but still want to participate in the Steemmonster program.
I keep wondering... I'm struggling every day to keep my level 6 deck in Diamond 3 this season, while during the previous seasons, I even got it up to Champion 3. Would your proposal mean that i should play Diamond tourneys with my level 6 deck?
I just mean... I think it won't be as easy to fix as it sounds, because they would have to tweak the entire game to make sure I don't get to reach Diamond with my Gold level deck...
I think the ratings would get "real" if people needed to play the quests to earn their ranks so they could enter the tourneys. So I don't think you could make it to diamond with a level 6 deck or if you did they you would be a super talented player since that level would have mostly level 8 decks.
And they seem hellbent on letting the big decks play also in the small tourneys too (which I don't like, but its another convo). So if they made it so that you are capped at least at the level you make in the quest league, then that would limit the people from playing as they are supposedly worried about.
I think if they did that though it would make more people want to play the quests and the fight to get ranked to a good level would be legit. So I doubt it would be all robots like we have experienced in the past.
I hope it helps and I don't think you are in danger of them taking any of my proposals. I think I've crossed swords with Aggy too much to ever put that genie back in the bottle.
Welcome to my world ;0)
Posted using Partiko Android
We need to remember that there is also a difference between the leagues in season games and tournaments. Tournaments currently do not have a champion level classification to themselves. So in reality a deck that plays in the champion league in season games, is equivalent to diamond league standard for tournaments The question then, is do we need a champion level classification for tournaments? My deck along with my ability would not be able to win a tournament currently in a diamond class tournament against the champion level players in season games! It's a pretty exclusive club up there at the moment:)
Thank you for the reply again. Your comments expanded my horizon - Now I understand how other players may view the game and system, and it is very helpful.
Posted using Partiko Android
Thank you for reading. I know this was a huge thread, but your participation here was definitely welcome and I'm happy to see you got to meet some of the very cool "more casual" players that you might never bump into!
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.004을 보팅해서 $0.019을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 3335번 $39.843을 보팅해서 $41.545을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
I don't really understand this because it should be self-regulating. Why are people going to waste their time entering tournaments that they know they can't cash in? And if for some reason they do, they'll be out quickly and it won't be a big deal.
If this is an excuse for not doing matchups well - which they definitely aren't - then why not be up front about that?
Hm, good point. Since it's still early stage, we will see how tourneys go.
I thought that if tourney table is random, then if you get lucky you may simply proceed easily and this will happen more frequently if there is no entry fee.
However, after reading this article and comments, now I understand that 'luck' is part of the game anyway and it may actually increase the player base.
Posted using Partiko Android
The tourney table isn't random, it's filled by order of entry. The exploitability of this is left as an exercise for the student.
One of the things that concerns me here is the complete lack of interest in prior art. @aggroed freaks out over two-hour tournaments when the entire rest of the gaming industry operates scheduled tournaments as 4+-hour events. They seed by entry time. They launch without refunds for unregistering. These are really basic unforced errors that could have been avoided by looking at any other tournament system ahead of time.
There really isn't enough luck in Monsters for it to function successfully as a gambling game. The problem with mass entries to the freerolls isn't that they make it boring for the better players but that they have no chance to win. Gambling tournaments like poker or DFS do well by offering everybody a shot while the better players have a substantial edge. Skill-game tournaments like most e-sports do well by offering deep strategy trees and action that is interesting to watch on a stream. Monsters right now has neither of these things, and doesn't seem to have a direction towards them.
Yes exactly. That's why I have pushed for the "single-splinter" events... People can focus on one specific splinter grouping and luck of the matchups give you some hope to win. Of course you have to be good, but you don't have to own every card possible to win (just focus on the splinter you like best and build that).
Encouraging others to play and win should be something they should be doing, but instead they are trying to "protect" the good players by giving out big pots from the "general prize pool" and restricting entry of the masses so that the tourneys move fast. And while I want to see you (and the other great players) rewarded, I also want to see the other people feel they can play and earn too. (Note: I am perfectly fine with making the pay higher for the higher tiers, and also with restricting entry to the size of the decks, just not by using fees to do so.)
I do not disagree with that.
I entered a Diamond tournament two or three times, because I thought perhaps it could be a good learning experience. But the only thing I learned is that there's not a lot to learn if you can't make it past round 1, lol. I learn way more just playing the leagues - still not enough to get really good at the game, though.
Opposite to that, if someone beats me over and over again, while my deck is ... let's say Silver level, while that person has lower level cards, that person - with a deck that's not (completely) leveled up to match the Silver league 'standards' - probably has a better chance to win a silver tourney than I do.
But I do get your point. And the example I use above is of course different from entering a diamond tourney with level 5 summoners only...
Hope you do well on silver/bronze tourneys! I feel that once you reach gold level limit your card levels are crucial...
Posted using Partiko Android
That's the thing. My highest deck is perfectly maximized to play Gold league tournaments. Up until a couple of weeks ago, I even won two gold tournaments.
The funny thing is, that I had no clue about how the the sneak and snipe rules worked back then.
Since I learned, it seems like I've only gotten worse.
I guess I'm overthinking it too much :)
Congrats! Gold level tourneys are lucrative ones so far.
And yeah, I feel that when I think too much I am more likely to lose too.
Posted using Partiko Android
My main problem is selecting the right splinter... I decide and than start doubting. I should learn to trust on my intuition instead of switching to a different splinter with only 30 seconds left on the timer, lol
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.005을 보팅해서 $0.018을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 3338번 $39.859을 보팅해서 $41.598을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.005을 보팅해서 $0.018을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 3336번 $39.848을 보팅해서 $41.563을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
Hey @glory7, I want to first thank you for taking the time to stop by. I know you are an amazing player, and even more important, I have alot of respect for you as a person. I notice how you handle yourself and treat people, and you are a "A+" person in that regard!
As to the entry fee, I understand your point of view and just have a different take on it. I'll explain so that you better understand "why" I am so upset.
I have tons of gold cards myself (like you), and I've invested thousands in them. I was told all along that the buying of all those cards collectively will go into a "pool" to be distributed to the card holders via tournaments. First it was 70%, then 30%. But that money was to go back to the people that had funded the pool.
The reason I am so upset is that I did my part and invested $10,000+ in the game. I have lots and lots of cards and I might want to have fun and play in a tourney every so often. After all, I bought the cards and spent tons of money, I was told that I would be able to earn that prize pool that I indirectly contribute towards.
Now I am being told with this new policy that for the larger tournaments, only the "serious" players can earn it. NOT ONE TIME WAS THAT EVER MENTIONED AS A PREREQUISITE. I don't even know what they are talking about when they say "serious", isn't spending $10,000 setting up a guild and having at least 40 people play the game every day for months "serious"?
Anyways, the way he is describing serious is whoever spends his predetermined amount. In this case its 5 steem. Well, that is a) insulting and b) ridiculous. Why should I pay to enter a tourney when I was promised that my cards I own would give me access to the prize pool? Its not right.
On top of that, you mention that you don't want some random guy to come in a random win, but isn't that the point of competition? I mean if you win it should because you have the skill and the luck at that time. You should know that your odds are great of beating me in a match, but maybe just may I could win if I'm lucky. That is what would make me even come play.
Now having said that, since there is now a charge of 5 steem, you will see the number of people limited to a amount of people that think they can place. Since I know I have the cards but not the talent, then I probably will never go play because it would be giving away 5 steem. I know its not a lot of money, but imagine doing it 10 times a week or more? It would add up. So the bottom line is you won't get me to play. That is good for you NOW, but what happens when people like me give up and go home. After all, why the hell would we want to own cards if we never play them? And just like you and your investments, you want to make a proper return. So by giving us NO hope of playing and eventually getting lucky OR spending more money that we know we will probably lose , then you are essentially going to set back the investor base quite a bit. I'm not the only one and you of all should know it. You know how many people you regularly play against, and you should imagine how many own cards that you don't see. Those cards will be coming back into the market at some point if they aren't played and people lose interest because they can't compete.
So this is a long winded way of explaining myself to you. I am taking the time to do so because you are the #1 player here. I don't expect you to do anything, I just want you to know how I think. This move will really hurt the Steemmonster game in 2 particular areas that shouldn't be ignored by anyone.
I thank you for your comment about me being made a Maverick and I think you're an awesome guy. I again want to thank you for taking the time to respond and give your thoughts and I honestly wish you nothing but the best in the future. If I had to pick someone to be the best from the people on Steemit, you are one of the ones that I would choose. Keep up being a great player and person and you will go far in your life! :)
It's 11am here and while I am at work right now, when I saw your reply I felt obliged to write a quick reply(at least) to appreciate your time and kindness to answer me in detailed, coherent way.
Now I can clearly see where your arguments are coming from, and I agree (at least partially) with you in some aspects. Without going into too much details, my understanding is that your concern is two parts:
People who paid for cards should be able to join the tourneys that are funded by themselves,
Having entry fee is not good for expanding the player base.
I should think more about this and make a suggestion (or state different opinion) later.
P.S. btw, you totally got me when we played last time (some gold foil tourney). I believe that you are already one of the top players, and are likely to win(as long as you have properly leveled-up cards for the designated level of the match).
Posted using Partiko Android
Thank you and of course don't take time from work to reply to me, that's respectful but not necessary! :)
And yes,
the people who own the cards have paid for the money that is in those pools. It was something promised from Day 1. Those pools were supposed to be for ALL the card holders as long as they owned the cards. By charging a fee, it is now requiring people to pay to have a chance at the money they've already been promised to have, and that's not right. (AGAIN, there are better ways to limit mismatches by making people stay in their leagues and compete that way... ie Diamonds vs Diamonds... Bronze vs Bronze)
Yes, if you read my blog here you can see the reaction. People don't like being treated unfairly. If they want to expand the player base, they also need to make sure they create an environment where the people that do try it feel they have a fair chance. Right now, under this way it will end up being a small set of people that get all the pool money (maybe 50 total players getting the major share of it). While that is good for you in the short run, it is not good in the long run. The reason is that you will have to recycle through all the others cards as they leave the game. If you want this to go viral and have lots of people stick around, I think it is also crucial that people that aren't the "best" players at least feel they have a fair chance.
By the way, I wouldn't have said anything if they didn't put the fees on it... The fees are what make it unfair when its coming from the money that was from the pool that all card holders paid for. I'm not suggesting that people have "handouts", I'm suggesting that if they want to limit the tourneys do it by another means. Limit it to a player's ELO rating and not by if they pay a fee or not. That would solve both problems rather easily. PS... Plus it would have the benefit of people wanting to play the quests again so that they can get in the better leagues. (thus making them better players)
... and pps... thank you for the kind words and I did get lucky against you on one match :P ... But I am old enough to know that you are better than me, but I would have fun playing you nonetheless! ;)
Having ELO system would be great, for matchmaking and tourney table setup.
It seems that they are working on 'dark energy crystal', in-game currency that can be earned by playing games(and more), and let players pay the entry fee with that crystal. May I ask what your thoughts are on this movement?
I don't know enough about it to give you any details, but I do understand the general concept. I think it will enable a currency to be created that enables people to "do things" (like entering tournaments). I think they plan on having players earn it in various ways, so a lot of what I think about it would depend on the details. Conceptually it is awesome, but if they do anything like this decision I'm upset about, then of course it could work against their goals.
I would say its great that they are advancing the infrastructure around the game, I think @yabapmatt does a tremendous job on all of that. I even think Aggy has talent on some aspects of marketing. The thing they are missing is they have lost a lot of trust from people by breaking promises, and the only way to regain that trust is to stop repeating the same mistakes.
I was also excited about their upcoming extension of weapons and spells.. It will be a different aspect that would add a lot of value to the game. That is supposed to come in the 4th quarter.
So overall, I love many things they are doing.
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.006을 보팅해서 $0.017을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 3337번 $39.854을 보팅해서 $41.580을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I am new to these type of games and reading the opinion of those who are not give me a better idea as to where I should stand on some issues.
For me, as long as they are going to do $100 in daily and $1000 in weekly freerolls as promised then I see these buy in games as extra games for us to play if we so choose.
I been saying it for as long as I can remember. SM is a gambling related game... similar to Poker. I fully expected to see buy ins for all level games from bronze to diamond.
However the wording of why they implemented the buy ins I don't like and leaves me with the lingering thought of ... I hope they don't plan on trying to put buy ins on the promised $100 daily / $1000 weekly "freerolls". I signed up a handful of players based on their promise of those games and I fully expect to see them implemented sometime in the near future now that auto tournaments are live. With that being said its hard to type everything out correctly and how you mean it 100% of the time so for the time being I am just going to enjoy what games are offered while waiting on the promised freeroll lineup.
I agree, but that is not what is happening... they are just doing smaller prizes for the freerolls and the bigger ones now you have to buy into.
And thanks for the feedback @rentmoney. I am in complete agreement with you, but that's not how I understood it.
I just had a discussion in regular SM chat. Low prize pool games will be free / medium ones +1 Steem and larger ones +5. This includes games that were previously advertised as $100/$1000 freerolls in the kickstarter and other places. I'm too disappointed to go back and read over the convo to see what amount was needed for the 1 steem buy in vs 5 Steem but the aforementioned was the jest of it. I'm all for buy in games but not in the freerolls we as a collective group have already earned.
I now feel as I been lying to people for months while advertising this game. $100 / $1000 daily/weekly freerolls were promised and a very vocal part of advertisement since I can remember. I posted that promise all over my blog and signed up 30 people under my affiliate link with that promise as the tag line, Plus countless others not under my link.
An in game currency will be adapted soon and that will certainly help with the sting of this but that still doesn't sit right with me.
Do people not remember the hot topics months back that said, make a meme of SM and up the Daily Freeroll from $40 to $50 or some version of that. Everyone who participated in those promos have already earned their entry in my eyes.
These freerolls were already earned. You can't go changing them to buy ins on the disguise of ..... but we want users to have a better experience and tournaments will take too long. If you want users to have a better experience then find a way to do that without taking away already earned games. I hope the SM team reconsiders their direction with this as I think its a massive blunder. I say all this not as an attack on SM or any of the decision makers but as my honest feedback as a player and as someone who has run hundreds of different variants of tournaments thus far in my lifetime.
You said it extremely well and I'm glad you are on the issue... It is a huge issue and they need to know. I get completely how you feel and why I'm making a big deal about it. If @yabapmatt and @aggroed don't address this, they will undo all the things we've done for them. It will set them back big time. Aggy did reply above if you want to respond directly, I have my response, but of course I recommend others tell him how they feel about it too.
If I can't (and everyone else) play my cards that I bought under the pretext that I could play in those tourneys, then it amounts to some serious charges against their ethics. If they think I've been tough on them, just wait til everyone figures it out. It won't be so civil, believe me.
Aggroed knows my stance on this via our discussion in the open discord chat. I have a decent amount of experience with running tournaments so I am not only speaking as a player / investor but I am also offering advice from my personal experience of running those tournaments. You simply don't offer something / have people qualify for it and then adjust the rules after the fact. It causes uproars such as this one and if done enough times will eventually cause loss of players. I do believe he is doing what he thinks is best currently but hopefully he takes all the collective feedback and changes his stance. I wish him and SM in general nothing but the best and hopefully one day we can all look back at all these topics and see they were the stepping stones in Mooning Steem-Monsters.
I'm with you on that... all of it... Well said @rentmoney and I hope you vision of the future is exactly like you said!
We all remember @rentmoney, but it seems others have self-induced amnesia all of a sudden.
I hear you Dave, I hear you...Problem is I have a bunch of cards that are now 'worthless' in comparison to what I payed for them (just like many others of course)...Asking people to pay a 5 steem entry fee without maxed cards in a tournament you simply can't win, is completely and utterly ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that new cards being constantly introduced into the game, only makes it more expensive. Some of those cards have to be bought and not earned. That fee is way too high anyway, even for maxed cards considering how expensive it is to get into the game in the first place. How am I supposed to even have a hope of being able to recoup my initial outlay by playing low level tournaments? So many things have gone into a completely different direction to what was proposed and /or promised, that its become a total joke honestly. I am not happy either, especially when we constantly get given a BS Public Relations response to something that they should not be dismissing lightly. Nobody gives a fuck about their customers any more, only what they get from them....then they just run off with the loot and say fuck you, your problem now.
That's what money does to people, @palikari123. It's sad, but true.
We've been accepting their (his) BS for way too long...
I tried my absolute best to remain as positive as possible (which I think I managed to do for quite a while). But with every let down and diversion from the original intent of the game, the frustration builds to a point where you can't stay silent anymore. It's a real shame because I really do love this game, and I saw the huge potential of it from the beginning when the first gameplay version was released publicly. I think it will most likely still be a success, but the barrier to even get started, let alone keep up with everyone and have a competitive level deck, is just too high of an obstacle for most users on this platform. Maybe that's was the intention was all along. It's starting to seem that way....
I've got the exact same feeling. It's indeed a shame, as I love to play the game - but it became clear to me a while ago we're not the ones they were targeting. And maybe, from a business perspective, that might be a smart move... or not. Time will tell...
I was going to highlight parts of it and say "exactly", but when I went to highlight it I realized I had almost the whole thing. So I'll just say you summed up the point of view of many and I completely agree with your thoughts. They will find out the hard way that they need the PKs to play this game... too bad they didn't provide the right atmosphere to keep a talented person like you that is tailor made for this type of game. Thanks for speaking out.
I played with you several times and I remember that you are one of the top players, especially bronze/silver tourneys.
I wonder what makes you angry about this to understand the issue better - having high-level league (that basically require high level cards) tourneys with entry fees? To me, it seems that there are at least 4x tourneys without the entry fee and they should be sufficient for various card levels.
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Hey @glory7. Thanks for the response, and apologies for not getting back to you sooner. Hopefully it was worth the wait :P
Can I just start off by saying, can you please stop kicking my butt in these tournaments? Thanks! lol...
I don't usually share too many opinions about the game publicly, and when I do, I’m usually a lot more skewed towards the positive realm of commentary. After all, I do very much still believe that the positives far outweigh the negatives, especially when it comes to the gameplay itself.
I think I do come off a little angry in my comment, but that is born out of the frustration of seeing what could be a wonderful game for all, being shifted towards only catering towards the high end of player.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that there should be various levels to play in and that the prizemoney should reflect the different levels of play/initial outlay players have made. I also think that the best players in the game deserve to be sufficiently rewarded for their obvious skill and ability to constantly navigate a field of players to come out on top. That's what tournaments are all about, and the winners should always be rewarded the most.
However, I do think that they are making a huge mistake by not paying out more places in general. I know that sucks for the winners and for the players at the very top, but if the money ends up only going into the hands of a few, then the money will eventually dry up and it will become unsustainable. That will actually end up hurting the top players even more in the long run. How? Many players will start to feel they have no chance of placing in the money, let alone having a chance of winning, and will refuse to even enter after a while. If there are no players left to play with, then there are no tournaments and the game will die.
This is where the entry fees will end up compounding that effect and exponentially increase the chances of people either leaving the game entirely or 'go broke' trying. When people outlay a significant amount of money just to purchase the actual tools that allows them to even begin to compete in a game of skill such as this, then adding another barrier of entry such as entry fees on top of that, only shows to me personally that the model is either already failing, or will end up doing so. The tournament field sizes will be the judge of that. I can already see the player pool shrinking in general.
Another part of the problem is, that everyone is being encouraged or incentivised to level their cards to compete at the higher levels. This is leaving many of the lower levels with fewer and fewer players as time goes by.
I say all of this from previous experiences in the poker world. At a certain point in time, most of the money ended up in the hands of the few at the top (specifically online poker). The industry was forced into changing its payout structures and paying out to more places in the tournaments. This was a smart move, as people were able to play longer with their bankroll by placing in the money more often and getting a more consistent return, which in turn kept players in the game longer that would have otherwise gone broke a lot sooner and left the game entirely.
To me, the entire point of the crypto based blockchain is to provide a model and platform that can self-sustain either an entire community project that benefits many, as well as the ability to generate the prizepools themselves. Entry fees should not be required in this case.
That’s how I see things for the most part anyway….
I 100% agree with payouts need to be expanded. I brought this up weeks back and it looked like they headed in the right direction to only go back to a version of the old model . I used poker as my example as well and even provided charts that showed tournament payouts across multiple million and billion dollar companies. To be fair the auto tournaments are new so I think we need to give them time to work out any kinks. Hopefully they are able to implement payouts based on the % of players entered at some point.
Edit: On further review of the finished tournaments it looks like they have expanded the payout structure.
That's a smart move and I'm happy to hear that.
Thanks for your response also and I agree with giving them a break on the tournaments and functionality part....no problem or issues there - you can never have things perfect from the get go.
Hey @glory7, this is another topic (other than the imposition of fees to enable us to get entry into the tourneys we were promised to have entry to) that I think is important to understand. @palikari123 describes it beautifully. I think everyone is going to want to explain to you things because 1) you're a great player and have respect of all and 2) you have shown an openness that is refreshing. So thank you for taking the time to interact with people here! :)
Thank you very much for letting me join this healthy, informative, friendly conversation. My pleasure.
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First of all, I appreciate your detailed reply. It helped me to understand the issue much better.
And second, I thought you kicked my ass several times! Maybe we only remember the games we lost.
Okay, going back to the main topic...
Among the points you made, I believe that the following two are crucial:
I am not sure how to solve this issue, nor do I know the impact of entry fee on high level tourneys. However, healthy discussion like this would certainly help.
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I actually don't understand the issue or problem with having more players playing in the diamond league tournaments myself. Most people with non-competitive decks will play once or twice and not play again anyway, as they will quickly realise that they have no shot of winning. Fee or no fee. I myself don't play them often, and there is no way I will pay a fee to even try - I know I would just be handing money over to the best players, who I know I can't consistently beat atm. If you think you have no shot of winning a tournament then it really is a waste of time and money for those people and not the top tier players. They will get paid to beat the weaker players anyway, so whats the big deal? And the best players would actually want the weak players in the field, as that's where the value actually comes from. You may get unlucky once or twice in the short term, but in the long run you are printing money against those players.
One of the biggest talking points amongst the SM community has always been to expand the player base as much as possible. That's a good idea for obvious reasons. But if players need to purchase cards to play the game and then have to also pay fees while losing consistently, they are more likely to get disheartened and give up, than if they didn't have to pay fees just for the privelege to enter a tournament.
The issue with paying a fee, comes from the fact that the prizepools were supposed to be generated from pack sales and the SM community account, and there was never a mention of fees being introduced into the game. This is why so many of us aren't buying the argument being given in favour of fees for tournaments (aside from the spam issue).
The reason why I made the second point you highlighted, is because there is a disconnect between the reason given for fees to be introduced (wasting peoples time) and the very likely reality that there will be much larger field sizes in diamond level tournaments in future anyway when more and more players level up. What happens when the game grows to the point of having 10,000 players all levelled up to diamond level playing tournaments? Will everyone be wasting their time then? So, to me that just doesnt make sense, because that is whole point.....To have more people playing a the highest possible level rather than less, which also creates the opportunity for more traffic and much bigger prize pools!
Thanks so much for giving us your time @glory7!
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.007을 보팅해서 $0.016을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 3311번 $39.564을 보팅해서 $41.272을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
And here I was hoping the tourneys would increase the value of cards, I should have tried selling a lot sooner I guess. Kind of funny, I have only completed I think 3 daily quest this season, it was just getting to hard with the glitches and the bots, and not allowing surrenders to count when you chose the hide cards option. I never did understand that, but well...you know how i've been feeling about it for the last few seasons of SM.
I hope you have a nice end of the weekend.
Thanks @bashadow, you too! And as you know, I understand!