RE: Good-bye Steemmonsters, I've Had Enough With This Last Tourney Twist (HAPPILY UPDATED!)
A player really likes Steem Monsters and decides to pay $3000 for a diamond deck that has a ton of good cards.
They sign up for a tournament. it's a "free tournament"
216 people sign up also sign up. Looks like fun!
However, only 16 of them have the same level deck
200 don't. The other 200 have bronze decks and are hoping by some miracle to get into the top 8 spots that are paid out.
that's approximately 8 rounds of bullshit that has to play out before you're back down to the real tournament of 16 players
that's 8*15 min. That's 2 hours of grinding idiotic games and waiting for people who flee or aren't paying attention. The diamond player is really frustrated because that's 2 hours completely wasted, before they get back down to the real tournament with 16 players in it
So, now they've wasted two hours, and still have the real tournament to play when it could have been over in 40 min or less.
Personally I value the time of someone who has $3000 to spend on a deck more than 60 cents an hour. I expect they will too.
I think you're taking the serious comment in an unintended manner. We're not questioning the seriousness of the diamond player. We're questioning the seriousness of a novice player willing to waste 2 hours of their time and everyone else's time just for the miracle chance of getting a paid spot.
Personally, I think the silver players are going to ask for a 1 steem entry fee before the end of the march because they'll be sick of novice and bronze players wasting their time. Because in that case the silver players value their time over 15 cents an hour, which I'm going to bet they do.
Also, keep in mind we don't keep any of the Steem from entry fees. We're putting 100% back into tournaments or potentially on the main account and using the steem power to continue to upvote players.
Lastly, we're working on an in game currency called Dark Energy Crystals. When it's out the plan is to switch the fee over to an in game currency players can earn through playing, by melting down cards, or by trading on the market. The majority of tournaments we offer won't cost Steem (I'm not going to commit to never charging a steem entry fee as there could be other good reasons to do it).
The DEC can be earned through casual play. The tournaments will continue to have a small cost associated with them, but it isn't in the spirit of nickel and diming mavs and high end players, but it's actually in the spirit of not allowing players with low tier decks and endless amounts of time from trying to win tournaments by attrition. I mean, they can still technically do it. But so far it seems that the silver players realize that it doesn't make sense to put the 1-5 steem into the pot to play in a tournament they can't win. It won't be the case if it's set to free.
You can imply I'm a big, mean, selfish, greedy, asshole, with no marketing skills and a willingness to burn everything to the ground. In the mean time, high level players are going to have short, fun, and financially rewarding tournaments and know that more tournaments are coming.
Best of luck Dave.
As one of those $3k players, I would much rather have my time valued at 60c/hr and other players valued at some non-zero amount than have my time valued at $6/hr and 200 people told they're not serious and don't deserve to play. The more you explain this the worse it gets.
We have always known it was going to turn out this way. They just had to build it on the bodies of the poor first. Rewards in steem monsters are much like food in communist countries. - Not everyone gets some.
"I think you're taking the serious comment in an unintended manner. We're not questioning the seriousness of the diamond player. We're questioning the seriousness of a novice player willing to waste 2 hours of their time and everyone else's time just for the miracle chance of getting a paid spot."
I agree that playing a 2 hour tournament is wasting your time, when you presented the idea of steemmonsters these tournaments were going to be a fantasy style where you pick a lineup of monsters and they auto fight in a tournament. What you made is nothing like what you sold all the early investors. In my opinion saying one thing and doing the opposite is a VALID reason to be upset. Almost every promise made to early investors has been broken.
"You can imply I'm a big, mean, selfish, greedy, asshole, with no marketing skills and a willingness to burn everything to the ground. In the mean time, high level players are going to have short, fun, and financially rewarding tournaments and know that more tournaments are coming."
These tournaments aren't fun, most of the time is waiting and the prizes are tiny.
@aggroed @yabapmatt everyone wants this game to be awesome, but some of us who have supported you since the beginning are getting tired of being intentionally mislead. Making decisions that sell out your early supporters to make a few dollars short term is the history you have made with steemmonsters so far.
Don't you have access to the data to see how big some people's deck are and what level they are on. Instead of limiting by an entry fee why not just have a minimum deck level requirement?
BOOM!!! HEADSHOT!
That would be great but then you couldn't rake people over the coals and take all their money. Steemmonster has been geared towards the people willing to pay the most from the get go. I should have listened and never invested but I wanted to believe.
Hi @aggroed,
I see the point of view from both sides. Having entered the paid diamond tournament over the weekend, I did appreciate not having to spend 2 hours playing in a tournament. I also see the frustration expressed by others because time is a valuable resource and should be considered for all players, irregardless of cardholder classification. The entry fee was selected as the first choice as the barrier for entry. Understandably; decision made and done for the first two weeks of tournaments.
The plan is to then have Dark Energy Crystals as the future entry fee. Could @yabapmatt add ELO ranking as another barrier of entry? A user could only enter a tournament if their current season ranking is equal to or above the tournament league; i.e., only players having reached gold ranking and above could enter the gold tournaments, diamond ranking and above could enter the diamond tourneys. I guess it would be likened to unlocking tournaments as you reach a higher ranking in the season game.
Benefits:
Players are encouraged to level up and play in the season game.
Players in the bronze league would not be qualified to join gold or diamond tourneys; no one's time is wasted.
On the other hand, we are not limiting players from playing in lower level leagues, if they choose to do so. If they have the time or inclination to play in a bronze league (and are in gold or diamond/champion ranking), then so be it.
I see @davemccoy and @rentmoney's perspective on the matter as well because they both have advocated this game from the get-go. They held contests and encouraged others to play because they thought these players would have the opportunity to enter free tournaments down the road. Even I was under the impression that all Steem Monsters tournaments would be free to play. The players they are fighting for are the redfishes and minnows in this community. Yes, they are passionate about the subject but that is because they care about the community and game.
Here is a snapshot of one players SM post earning. Players like @cicisaja have spent hours playing and leveling up their cards to reach gold ranking. They should be able to freely enter all novice to gold-level tournaments without having to use their post earning to pay an entry fee. (I hope you don't mind my using one of your posts as an example @cicisaja -- I haven't been posting so I couldn't use my own.)
I admire you three very much @aggroed, @davemccoy and @yabapmatt. The three of you have been strong advocates of this community, from the smallest fishes to the whales. Let's somehow keep this momentum going with auto-tournaments and not lose the faith of the community.
I'm not a card collector, so don't have a dog in this fight. I am interested in Steem, and Steem Monsters affects it, so pay attention for that reason.
You and I have not agreed on some things in the past, and a similar genesis of this particular issue is apparent to me. You've made statements that proved impossible to live up to, and instead of just saying 'I thought I could do that, but it couldn't be done', you ignore that, and instead have a different conversation. You do that here, and just skip that part.
Is the game just about prizes and payouts, or is there some merit to actually playing?
Just...
IRL sports have playoffs that winnow the field and end up with finals. Rather than simply avoiding 'wasting all that time playing games' to just cut straight to a final and using financial barriers to exclude the poor, I recommend you adopt that mechanism for Steem Monsters. Everybody gets to play at their level, and the financial barrier is effected organically, which prevents many more people from becoming aware of it.
Nothing will kill popularity faster than elitism, because the populace isn't the elite, by definition.
I note that you have been very successful at starting good things up, and then getting good folks in place to run those balls. We all have skill sets, yet I wonder if we really know what they are.
This is an opportunity for you to gain understanding. You are definitely able to create financially rewarding mechanisms, but keeping them financially rewarding requires maintaining the non-financial features of those mechanisms, and I observe your personal focus on finance seems to be getting in the way of that here. Ignoring valid criticisms prevents you from gaining understanding.
I wish you all the best.
I'd like an answer of if I will be able to play if I don't pay the fee (from both you and @yabapmatt). I will wait and give you time to read it and think about it, since @jarvie has told me my methods of going public are not the most effective way to get an answer.
But I do want an answer, so please get back to me and let me know if I can play with NO more investment needed or if my cards aren't enough to enable me to enter those tourneys.
The answer is crucial and revealing and will let me know what happens next.
Technically it's more about aggressiveness in public environment. I use @monsterworld decently often to give very public ideas for issues i see together with creative solutions.
So are you asking that people self-censor themselves and don't share their honest opinions? Because that's not what this platform is about....Some people want it both ways - strong advocates for free speech, and when it doesn't suit them, please don't be aggressive? Do only some people have a right to express an honest opinion on here that's based off their own self-interest? Sometimes it gets to the point where people need to kick up a fuss JUST TO GET HEARD, or they will simply be ignored.
The question I'd like to pose here @aggroed, is around the lower level "free" tournaments. The Novice level, for example, by the tournament blurb, is targetting new or inexperienced players.
Now scrolling through the list of registered players, there are some quite battle-seasoned names in there. Whilst they won't have access to their full high level decks, they will have a big experience advantage. So, what "protection" is on the roadmap for these low level tournaments to ensure that they are winnable by those for which they are intended and not dominated by the big guns?
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I think this is your problem... The ones you and I would think are intended are not the same as what Aggy intends. He is rewarding EXACTLY who he wants to reward, and taking everyone's pool money to do it as well. Every day that goes by without them making adjustments, just tells me truly what their intentions are.
I went all in on this and now I fear I will be giving out handjobs behind the dumpster to pay for my kids' college education now. I am glad someone made out like a bandit. I guess you don't get to the number 1 witness spot worrying about who you step on getting there.
lol. You may still save your dignity. This is just a blip and the market has already improved. Just wait until 'normies' actually discover this game :-P
Thank you for your question, @sparkesy43.
I have never understood why players who have cards of a higher level would be able to or even want to play players who are at a lower level in a tournament.
In the old time jousting tournaments, each entrant had to at least have a good horse, that long jousting thingy and armor. A naked man or woman or someone with just the helmet armor but with a horse would never have been allowed to enter.
Let lower level players play against lower level players so they have a chance to win the lower level prizes and the same for all the levels. Let gold players play other gold players. Let diamond play diamond and compete for the diamond prizes.
That way MORE players, of every different level, have a real chance to enjoy Steemmonster tournaments and perhaps WIN some of the prizes for the level of cards they possess.
IF a diamond level player TRULY enjoys playing at the novice level, then that diamond player can use an alt NOVICE level account to play in the novice tourney I suppose. But even this would be unfair for lower level players who just haven't had the time, money and experience to move up higher.
Why should it be ok for higher level players to clutch away all the prizes at EVERY level, leaving none for the real players who ONLY have cards at each of the lower levels?
Just don't get it.
As @davemccoy suggested, program the tournaments so that players' cards match the tournament level they enter.
I'd have to reread Dave's comments to be sure, so I'll own this other part... let players ONLY enter tournaments that match their cards, period. Bronze level account card holders can only enter bronze level tournaments, NOT novice tournaments too. Gold can enter gold ONLY, diamond enter diamond tourneys ONLY. That way every player can stay in their lane and have a fair chance to earn the prizes allotted to their lane.
This is an appeal for league level programming to be added and for higher level players to give lower level players an opportunity to play their equals in the official Steemmonster tournaments. This will give lower level players a real chance to share in the lower level prize goodies.
I'm sure when tournament hosting is opened up, there will be some other hosts who will allow higher level players to nab the novice, silver and other lower level prizes. ;)
I think what you are suggesting would be great for leagues. Instead of having one main league we have a league for each and every level of play with each account only being allowed to pick one league to participate in per season. The higher the league the better the prizes. For example ... Novice league would have very minimal prizes compared to Diamond league.
However I don't think its a good idea to make those with diamond level cards play diamond level games only and one main reason to this is skill wise not all players who have diamond level cards are diamond level players / Not all players who own Silver level cards are Silver level players. A newbie can sign up to Steem-Monsters today and buy his way into having Silver/Gold or Diamond level cards. It wouldn't be fair to restrict this player to only Diamond level play because they decided they wanted to start with a max deck.
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That makes no sense to me. I have people who spend 50k on a plate to eat with me and I will never know their name.
You should try politics. I have found that when things like this come up the people that are against me usually just commit suicide.