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RE: Good-bye Steemmonsters, I've Had Enough With This Last Tourney Twist (HAPPILY UPDATED!)
First of all, thank you for sharing your honest opinion.
I thought the entry fee for diamond or gold card leagues was a great idea, as it would prevent no-shows and random lucky-draw results due to non-serious players (so some people basically get free bye or win). And 1 or 5 steem would not be too much, as an player/investor who spent a lot already. But I do think you made a valid point, as people may feel different.
I believe that you should get the maverick status(MS) too, given that you spent a lot more than what is needed for the MS. I bought most of the cards via peakmonsters too, but with some luck I bought like 600 packs to get MS status.
I just wonder why the word 'serious' is being used while actually 'with money' is meant?
I know players who are more serious about the game than I am - they're also a lot better at it than I am - still, I can sign up for every tourney I want and get beaten by you over and over again (which actually happens all the time, lol - I'm @monstermother), while they are so much more talented but don't have the means to enjoy that same privilege...
I saw your message about the entry fees on Discord earlier, and I really appreciate your comment. Not many people are brave enough to be willing to take a look at things from a different perspective.
Yes I too hate the use of the word "serious"... Is this not serious enough for @aggroed and @yabapmatt? I mean if I wasn't serious, how the hell did I get all these cards and why exactly can't I enter the tourneys like I was promised?
This is just a portion of my purple deck to show the selenias and only the gold (not the regulars) and only this account as I have many more.
I'm not showing them to brag but to make a point... If I don't pay 5 steem then my cards can't win in the big tourneys as promised... what a kick in my balls this is!
Exactly my point.
I've seen the words 'serious players' so many times, and every time 2 things go through my head: people like you and bee and PK who have spent all that money on cards, and people like Faiyaz and so many others, who are so very talented and good, but don't have the same means to buy theirselves a deck to compete with the best (or richest, I'm all confused about which word would be the proper one to use)
I'm not even sure what the word 'serious' means anymore ...
Yes... I now don't like that word at all, Aggy has ruined it in my eyes... I thought I was serious but now so confused... I'm
seriousnot joking. :DAnd to get to your point, same here... I see the work that people put in to play the matches on those quests now for 2 months. I know how much they were "serious" when they spent their time. I also know they have asked questions and learned lots about the game. I thought they was "serious" when they use their mind to understand how it all works.
I'm with you on the word "serious" meaning willing to pay money, because in my whole life I've never seen all the other things ignored at the exclusion of how much money they have spent/will spend.
now... I'm thinking.. what are you going to do with all those gold Coach...yaaaaayyyy... that's a lot of GOLD FOILS, I ever seen!whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... Golden Selenia!!
lol... :D... don't worry, when I figure out what direction this heads, I will make sure my teammates are helped... I just don't know how some things are going to play out, but either way I will help you (and the teammates). :D
Hahaha, @cicisaja. You literally ALWAYS make me smile, if not laugh out loud. ;0)
We have the right to be entertained in this hard situation @simplymike 😊 all the talks in this thread.. man, never seen a post with such a long comment in it, not even steemmonster's posts or those who mentioned above (though he made it to trending page because he is a maverick😂😂😂😂)... this post remind me to palooza newbie games too😊 but without free cards to win😆
You're absolutely right. And you're doing a great job entertaining me :0)
I don't think i've ever spent so much time in a thread as this one, lol.
And maybe i can give you the Palooza feeling again: I have some spare cards in my account. I'm not using them, so i can just as well share them. All we need to figure out if one of my spare cards would be of any use to you... ;0)
Hello, didn't know that you were monstermother! (If I remember correctly, you actually beat me several times at silver/bronze tourneys)
I agree that there are some players who are talented but do not have leveled up cards. But I guess this is the part we may not agree with: I believe that if someone has underleveled cards for the tourney league level, she should not participate "just to test water" and focus on the right league level tourneys.
We are still in early stage, but I won't be surprised to see 100+ people join for free tourneys, and for gold foil only or diamond level tourneys I certainly would not like to see that unless they actually have cards to compete with.
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I think @aggroed has successfully convinced people that an entry fee is the way to stop low level decks from playing in high level tourneys. I think its a hollow argument though. The reason is because they can limit a player to participation based on his league level in the quest leagues... If you are a silver league player in that league, why not limit them to jsut the silver league tourneys... They your issue would be solved.
But @aggroed and @yabapmatt aren't doing it that way. Of course they could and it wouldn't break a promise and it would also make everyone much happier. But either they didn't think of it (which I doubt) or they wanted to introduce a "fee" to play. Either way it isn't acceptable to me when it is easy to both:
a) achieve what you want (proper competition) and
b) not break their promises to the investors of the cards.
Again, thanks for your input and for engaging us. I just want you to understand what its like from others who might not be as good as you but still want to participate in the Steemmonster program.
I keep wondering... I'm struggling every day to keep my level 6 deck in Diamond 3 this season, while during the previous seasons, I even got it up to Champion 3. Would your proposal mean that i should play Diamond tourneys with my level 6 deck?
I just mean... I think it won't be as easy to fix as it sounds, because they would have to tweak the entire game to make sure I don't get to reach Diamond with my Gold level deck...
I think the ratings would get "real" if people needed to play the quests to earn their ranks so they could enter the tourneys. So I don't think you could make it to diamond with a level 6 deck or if you did they you would be a super talented player since that level would have mostly level 8 decks.
And they seem hellbent on letting the big decks play also in the small tourneys too (which I don't like, but its another convo). So if they made it so that you are capped at least at the level you make in the quest league, then that would limit the people from playing as they are supposedly worried about.
I think if they did that though it would make more people want to play the quests and the fight to get ranked to a good level would be legit. So I doubt it would be all robots like we have experienced in the past.
I hope it helps and I don't think you are in danger of them taking any of my proposals. I think I've crossed swords with Aggy too much to ever put that genie back in the bottle.
Welcome to my world ;0)
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We need to remember that there is also a difference between the leagues in season games and tournaments. Tournaments currently do not have a champion level classification to themselves. So in reality a deck that plays in the champion league in season games, is equivalent to diamond league standard for tournaments The question then, is do we need a champion level classification for tournaments? My deck along with my ability would not be able to win a tournament currently in a diamond class tournament against the champion level players in season games! It's a pretty exclusive club up there at the moment:)
Thank you for the reply again. Your comments expanded my horizon - Now I understand how other players may view the game and system, and it is very helpful.
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Thank you for reading. I know this was a huge thread, but your participation here was definitely welcome and I'm happy to see you got to meet some of the very cool "more casual" players that you might never bump into!
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.004을 보팅해서 $0.019을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 3335번 $39.843을 보팅해서 $41.545을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
I don't really understand this because it should be self-regulating. Why are people going to waste their time entering tournaments that they know they can't cash in? And if for some reason they do, they'll be out quickly and it won't be a big deal.
If this is an excuse for not doing matchups well - which they definitely aren't - then why not be up front about that?
Hm, good point. Since it's still early stage, we will see how tourneys go.
I thought that if tourney table is random, then if you get lucky you may simply proceed easily and this will happen more frequently if there is no entry fee.
However, after reading this article and comments, now I understand that 'luck' is part of the game anyway and it may actually increase the player base.
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The tourney table isn't random, it's filled by order of entry. The exploitability of this is left as an exercise for the student.
One of the things that concerns me here is the complete lack of interest in prior art. @aggroed freaks out over two-hour tournaments when the entire rest of the gaming industry operates scheduled tournaments as 4+-hour events. They seed by entry time. They launch without refunds for unregistering. These are really basic unforced errors that could have been avoided by looking at any other tournament system ahead of time.
There really isn't enough luck in Monsters for it to function successfully as a gambling game. The problem with mass entries to the freerolls isn't that they make it boring for the better players but that they have no chance to win. Gambling tournaments like poker or DFS do well by offering everybody a shot while the better players have a substantial edge. Skill-game tournaments like most e-sports do well by offering deep strategy trees and action that is interesting to watch on a stream. Monsters right now has neither of these things, and doesn't seem to have a direction towards them.
Yes exactly. That's why I have pushed for the "single-splinter" events... People can focus on one specific splinter grouping and luck of the matchups give you some hope to win. Of course you have to be good, but you don't have to own every card possible to win (just focus on the splinter you like best and build that).
Encouraging others to play and win should be something they should be doing, but instead they are trying to "protect" the good players by giving out big pots from the "general prize pool" and restricting entry of the masses so that the tourneys move fast. And while I want to see you (and the other great players) rewarded, I also want to see the other people feel they can play and earn too. (Note: I am perfectly fine with making the pay higher for the higher tiers, and also with restricting entry to the size of the decks, just not by using fees to do so.)
I do not disagree with that.
I entered a Diamond tournament two or three times, because I thought perhaps it could be a good learning experience. But the only thing I learned is that there's not a lot to learn if you can't make it past round 1, lol. I learn way more just playing the leagues - still not enough to get really good at the game, though.
Opposite to that, if someone beats me over and over again, while my deck is ... let's say Silver level, while that person has lower level cards, that person - with a deck that's not (completely) leveled up to match the Silver league 'standards' - probably has a better chance to win a silver tourney than I do.
But I do get your point. And the example I use above is of course different from entering a diamond tourney with level 5 summoners only...
Hope you do well on silver/bronze tourneys! I feel that once you reach gold level limit your card levels are crucial...
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That's the thing. My highest deck is perfectly maximized to play Gold league tournaments. Up until a couple of weeks ago, I even won two gold tournaments.
The funny thing is, that I had no clue about how the the sneak and snipe rules worked back then.
Since I learned, it seems like I've only gotten worse.
I guess I'm overthinking it too much :)
Congrats! Gold level tourneys are lucrative ones so far.
And yeah, I feel that when I think too much I am more likely to lose too.
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My main problem is selecting the right splinter... I decide and than start doubting. I should learn to trust on my intuition instead of switching to a different splinter with only 30 seconds left on the timer, lol
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.005을 보팅해서 $0.018을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 3338번 $39.859을 보팅해서 $41.598을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.005을 보팅해서 $0.018을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 3336번 $39.848을 보팅해서 $41.563을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
Hey @glory7, I want to first thank you for taking the time to stop by. I know you are an amazing player, and even more important, I have alot of respect for you as a person. I notice how you handle yourself and treat people, and you are a "A+" person in that regard!
As to the entry fee, I understand your point of view and just have a different take on it. I'll explain so that you better understand "why" I am so upset.
I have tons of gold cards myself (like you), and I've invested thousands in them. I was told all along that the buying of all those cards collectively will go into a "pool" to be distributed to the card holders via tournaments. First it was 70%, then 30%. But that money was to go back to the people that had funded the pool.
The reason I am so upset is that I did my part and invested $10,000+ in the game. I have lots and lots of cards and I might want to have fun and play in a tourney every so often. After all, I bought the cards and spent tons of money, I was told that I would be able to earn that prize pool that I indirectly contribute towards.
Now I am being told with this new policy that for the larger tournaments, only the "serious" players can earn it. NOT ONE TIME WAS THAT EVER MENTIONED AS A PREREQUISITE. I don't even know what they are talking about when they say "serious", isn't spending $10,000 setting up a guild and having at least 40 people play the game every day for months "serious"?
Anyways, the way he is describing serious is whoever spends his predetermined amount. In this case its 5 steem. Well, that is a) insulting and b) ridiculous. Why should I pay to enter a tourney when I was promised that my cards I own would give me access to the prize pool? Its not right.
On top of that, you mention that you don't want some random guy to come in a random win, but isn't that the point of competition? I mean if you win it should because you have the skill and the luck at that time. You should know that your odds are great of beating me in a match, but maybe just may I could win if I'm lucky. That is what would make me even come play.
Now having said that, since there is now a charge of 5 steem, you will see the number of people limited to a amount of people that think they can place. Since I know I have the cards but not the talent, then I probably will never go play because it would be giving away 5 steem. I know its not a lot of money, but imagine doing it 10 times a week or more? It would add up. So the bottom line is you won't get me to play. That is good for you NOW, but what happens when people like me give up and go home. After all, why the hell would we want to own cards if we never play them? And just like you and your investments, you want to make a proper return. So by giving us NO hope of playing and eventually getting lucky OR spending more money that we know we will probably lose , then you are essentially going to set back the investor base quite a bit. I'm not the only one and you of all should know it. You know how many people you regularly play against, and you should imagine how many own cards that you don't see. Those cards will be coming back into the market at some point if they aren't played and people lose interest because they can't compete.
So this is a long winded way of explaining myself to you. I am taking the time to do so because you are the #1 player here. I don't expect you to do anything, I just want you to know how I think. This move will really hurt the Steemmonster game in 2 particular areas that shouldn't be ignored by anyone.
I thank you for your comment about me being made a Maverick and I think you're an awesome guy. I again want to thank you for taking the time to respond and give your thoughts and I honestly wish you nothing but the best in the future. If I had to pick someone to be the best from the people on Steemit, you are one of the ones that I would choose. Keep up being a great player and person and you will go far in your life! :)
It's 11am here and while I am at work right now, when I saw your reply I felt obliged to write a quick reply(at least) to appreciate your time and kindness to answer me in detailed, coherent way.
Now I can clearly see where your arguments are coming from, and I agree (at least partially) with you in some aspects. Without going into too much details, my understanding is that your concern is two parts:
People who paid for cards should be able to join the tourneys that are funded by themselves,
Having entry fee is not good for expanding the player base.
I should think more about this and make a suggestion (or state different opinion) later.
P.S. btw, you totally got me when we played last time (some gold foil tourney). I believe that you are already one of the top players, and are likely to win(as long as you have properly leveled-up cards for the designated level of the match).
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Thank you and of course don't take time from work to reply to me, that's respectful but not necessary! :)
And yes,
the people who own the cards have paid for the money that is in those pools. It was something promised from Day 1. Those pools were supposed to be for ALL the card holders as long as they owned the cards. By charging a fee, it is now requiring people to pay to have a chance at the money they've already been promised to have, and that's not right. (AGAIN, there are better ways to limit mismatches by making people stay in their leagues and compete that way... ie Diamonds vs Diamonds... Bronze vs Bronze)
Yes, if you read my blog here you can see the reaction. People don't like being treated unfairly. If they want to expand the player base, they also need to make sure they create an environment where the people that do try it feel they have a fair chance. Right now, under this way it will end up being a small set of people that get all the pool money (maybe 50 total players getting the major share of it). While that is good for you in the short run, it is not good in the long run. The reason is that you will have to recycle through all the others cards as they leave the game. If you want this to go viral and have lots of people stick around, I think it is also crucial that people that aren't the "best" players at least feel they have a fair chance.
By the way, I wouldn't have said anything if they didn't put the fees on it... The fees are what make it unfair when its coming from the money that was from the pool that all card holders paid for. I'm not suggesting that people have "handouts", I'm suggesting that if they want to limit the tourneys do it by another means. Limit it to a player's ELO rating and not by if they pay a fee or not. That would solve both problems rather easily. PS... Plus it would have the benefit of people wanting to play the quests again so that they can get in the better leagues. (thus making them better players)
... and pps... thank you for the kind words and I did get lucky against you on one match :P ... But I am old enough to know that you are better than me, but I would have fun playing you nonetheless! ;)
Having ELO system would be great, for matchmaking and tourney table setup.
It seems that they are working on 'dark energy crystal', in-game currency that can be earned by playing games(and more), and let players pay the entry fee with that crystal. May I ask what your thoughts are on this movement?
I don't know enough about it to give you any details, but I do understand the general concept. I think it will enable a currency to be created that enables people to "do things" (like entering tournaments). I think they plan on having players earn it in various ways, so a lot of what I think about it would depend on the details. Conceptually it is awesome, but if they do anything like this decision I'm upset about, then of course it could work against their goals.
I would say its great that they are advancing the infrastructure around the game, I think @yabapmatt does a tremendous job on all of that. I even think Aggy has talent on some aspects of marketing. The thing they are missing is they have lost a lot of trust from people by breaking promises, and the only way to regain that trust is to stop repeating the same mistakes.
I was also excited about their upcoming extension of weapons and spells.. It will be a different aspect that would add a lot of value to the game. That is supposed to come in the 4th quarter.
So overall, I love many things they are doing.
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.006을 보팅해서 $0.017을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 3337번 $39.854을 보팅해서 $41.580을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~