Pushing Back Against Pro-Vaccination Zealots
I recently got into a bit of a disagreement with a friend and two acquaintances of hers who happened to be morons.
She chose to share the following article about measles-related deaths... no problem, other than most of it seeming to be locked behind a pay wall.
“Tragedy” of 35 deaths from measles in Europe last year is unacceptable, says WHO
But she also had a strong statement to add.
"Please cut the crap and the pseudo science. Vaccinate your kids."
It seems that the article had a message to send - that holding off from vaccinations results in deaths to otherwise preventable diseases.
And you know what? Its not wrong.
Vaccinations are supposed to prevent those diseases.
However - as some of us are aware - there is another side to this story.
And, judging from the responses that this friend's article received - I felt the need to interject.
James: "Perhaps there would be less crap and suspicion surrounding the resistance to vaccinations if people were treated more humanely in being made aware of what goes into them.
After all - its not like vaccination injuries and fatalities are a product of myth.They are certainly less well documented but they do exist."
It seemed like a reasonable response.... and yet...
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OK that is a bit of an exaggeration - however morons do exist in this World.
One of them felt that the following was an appropriate immediate response.
A Moron: "Please stop sharing pseudo science. There is only one paper about issues with vaccines which has been discredited by several other papers and even by the authors who wrote it themselves. If you want to share this crap you're responsible for these deaths too."
Hmmm? Apparently I'd been sharing "pseudo-science".
James: Really now...
I have very deliberately 'NOT' been flexing my ability to inundate with a multitude of sources of varying credibility (including claims of sustained vaccine injuries).
So no, I'm not "sharing pseudo science".
What you 'TRULY' are saying is that you don't appreciate persons who have a differing perspective from you making it known that not everybody takes 'your' standpoint as spoken gospel.
So much so that you use the very typical {rubbish} non-argument that my doing so entails responsibility for "these deaths".
Balderdash!
Just as it would equally be balderdash for me to small-mindedly claim that anybody sharing information about how a failure to vaccinate resulted in 35 deaths is actually contributing to whatever vaccine-related injuries and deaths have been occurring.
Its just not on, do you not agree?"
Same Moron: "No can't agree with you. Comments like yours have allowed for the reappearance of once eradicated diseases and also easily prevented deaths.
Also you're saying that the World Health Organization is passing misinformation."
James: " I do not ask you to agree with me... just as I don't ask anybody to.
However I would certainly like you to explain how 'Comments like {mine} have allowed for the reappearance of once eradicated diseases and also easily prevented deaths'
You appear to know something that I do not. Please do enlighten us..."
Quite conveniently the moron was not inclined to do so.
James: "Would it really shock you to learn that a massive multinational organization in the pockets of big pharmaceutical companies might filter the information that they deliver about 'this and that' to the tastes and interests of their big-time benefactors?
Remember... the aim of the money behind medicine is to make money...
It is more profitable to treat a disease than to cure a disease.
It is more profitable to cause a disease than both combined."
Same Moron: "Ever since people have started questioning vaccines diseases have started reappearing. Also your statement about pharmaceutical companies is misleading. Of course they make money however it's negligible to costs the diseases prevented would cause.
So you're saying pharmaceutical companies make you ill. Just how do they do it?"
James: "Personally? I think that the most efficient and undetectable way to install and spread disease is to disperse it over populations. That enters 'chemtrails' territory.
Of course - its not an impossibility for certain "back doors" being installed into humans through the influenza vaccine... but thats probably a little too brazen for them. They are more likely to infect a batch of mosquitoes and release them (undetected).
All speculation, of course.
You are entitled to your views and I do not begrudge you for them. However, again, there is always another side to any given story, no matter how sure you think that you are of your own."
Same Moron: "Good god so your a conspiracy theorist. Believe whatever you want as I can't possibly change you're mind."
James: " I do believe that your views are even more immovable and static than my own. :c)
Good god indeed..."
Another Moron: "What qualifies you to be able to talk about vaccines like this? Do you have a background in biology, chemistry or pharmacy? If not you have no right to pass on misinformation on a topic you might enjoy reading about but clearly do not understand."
James: "Let us deconstruct your two fallacies:
Firstly that one needs to be "qualified" to have a view.
Balderdash. The medical field posits itself as an unassailable empirical establishment of "science" - while very barefacedly being unworthy of its self-assigned pedestal of unapproachability.
I require certification to practice medicine, not to have a view about it. If you hold a differing view then perhaps you ought to gain the assistance of a "competent" lawyer.
Secondly - your blatant disregard of consistency.
Did it not occur to you, before you placed finger-to-key, that what you claim is necessary for one to "have {a} right" to differ from a medical view also equally applies for one to have such right to 'support' such same medical view?
Consistency... Please...
Now... if you are done attempting to use low-level arguments of dismissal, might I propose a more meaningful argument which actually delves into the fors and againsts of the matter?
You know... that which actually counts... the meat upon the bones... 'if' you feel competent to take on the challenge.
Of course... I would rather not turn this into a battle ground of arguments. Might I suggest that you set up a thread upon your own profile so that you may indulge in your desire to engage in argumentation without further dragging this one down the path of discord?"
Now the truth was that I lacked much of the hard data that I'd need to refer to so as to hold my own in an anti-vaxxer corner... but I was frankly triggered by the escallations and nonsensical dismissals of the above-mentioned morons.
There are far more driven individuals with an interest in making such a case (and I do admit that I'd have likely fallen back upon materials sourced from Steemit to construct a case (I'm stubborn like that).
However - what both the above morons failed to see was that my views were actually relatively balanced. I acknowledge the potential for good in vaccines. I just hold doubts about the motives of those entrusted with the task of researching, producing and profiting upon such vaccines.
One doesn't need to have hard data to know that something isn't quite right - and the truth is that it is worrying that it is potentially a lot more profitable for privately owned interests to taint us with diseases than to cure us of such. Its just business...
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On the Right to Express a Viewpoint
On a slightly different note, I would especially like to highlight that it is disturbingly common for some individual to pipe up and suggest that one does not have the right to speak about a subject due to a lack in qualifications.
Yes, it would be 'ideal' to be officially qualified - but to suggest that one needs to be so in order to get anything said or done (short of practice) is an intellectually dishonest notion designed to attempt to "win" an argument not through a demonstration of superiority in position but by mere walkover - by default.
There is no honour in such a "victory" and neither is the discourse furthered in any way.
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On Cheap Attempts to Attribute a Responsibility Not Our Own
Note also how earlier on there was an attempt made to suggest that my speaking any way other than favorably of vaccines is for me to take on "responsibility" for those who died of measles.
Such was a cheap attempt to rebuke that which I said without properly addressing that which was said. The expectation in anybody using such a tactic is that the recipient is to bow his or her head and lap up the poison of shame prescribed to them. It was important to rubbish the claim - and so I did.
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On being a "Conspiracy Theorist"
Similarly, when faced with information that he could not effectively rubbish (funny how common sense is somewhat difficult to rubbish), the entirety of the argument was swept to one side with the equally cheap declaration that I am a 'label used to derogatory effect' (i.e. a conspiracy theorist).
Of course, again the intent of he who perused of it was to absolve the self of any intellectual effort in rebuking the arguments themselves. So instead he directed his cheap slight at me as an individual.
Labels are extremely effective 'intellectual shortcuts'. They can be used for good and for evil. One of the more unfortunate uses of labels is the fabrication of a particularly nasty set of traits to be associated with the label in question - and then to attribute that label to individuals.
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"Don't listen to Rupert. He is a {label}!"
So... eff-ing... what? So Rupert is:
- a communist
- a witch
- a liberal
- a "conspiracy theorist"
Now imagine that Rupert had just opined that steak goes well with a pepper sauce. So what if he were any of those labels? Labels are merely abused as a means of taking intellectual shortcuts - particularly in saving 'other people' the time to use their god-given senses to come to a natural conclusion over persons and what they say.
Labels are hard to counter - which is why the next best option available is to call a label-user out, preferably while in a position to prove him or her mistaken.
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Well thank you for following through with this discussion-in-passing. Did you feel that I was, in truth, the moron? Perhaps I was! I look forward to hearing your views.
If you have any comments that you would like to share then I will join you down in the comments section below.
Sincerely,
Previous Post: The Future of Democracy
Ahh my friend @pathforger - I guess I have just become a Moron. As you may remember: I am an Emergency Nurse who actually likes not having to bump into these communicable diseases. You have said (and it is true) that all people deserve the right to freedom of speech and believing whatever they want to believe. But I will ask for one more thing - when I had to provide my postgrad papers, I was asked for referencing to my arguments. I can't just make up facts for myself. Well my friend - where are yours? You mentioned an outbreak of 35 deaths in Europe according to WHO, but in America alone (according to Center of Disease Control and Prevention, 2018) in 2017 there have been 118 cases of Measles diagnosed and reported. But what about these deaths from vaccinations? Is that referenced?
That being said, there is something behind what you say. According to the CDC (center of Disease Control and Prevention - I don't think you're interested in Australian stats lol) , in 2017 there were 332 cases of injuries/deaths reported in America associated to Vaccines. Before anyone freaks out, 275 of the 332 were flu vaccine and these injuries goes to different levels. Of the deaths, there were 5 deaths and 4 of them related back to the flu vaccine. One would say from these results, the flu vaccine needs a good hard look at including the fact that it can be sold over the counter in America - when it should be administered by an immunization nurse!!!!
As to the ethics and morality of the companies providing these vaccines - I agree entirely. It is totally wrapped around profit. But isn't that the same for any other medication? Just because the companies providing Digoxin (or IV Epinephrine for that matter) make millions of dollars at our expense - it doesn't mean that the product is not still to be produced or used.
As far as the conspiracy theory is concerned, well - it all goes back to the antigen to antibody theory. That I will leave to the medifacts sheet on Google to explain to you. I think I have taken up too much of your space here. I don't think you should let your friend be upset or upset you about vaccinations. It is a difficult issue for a parent, but unless you are suddenly married with 5 kids that I don't know about, then you don't have to worry about it. And as far as the flu vaccination goes. Pls get it done with a Dr or nurse and don't just jab yourself - there is an assessment to be performed prior!!
Keep putting your posts on and let me know more of your deep and meaningful thoughts!! :)
Ah, @mysecondself01, I am truly sad that you too have interpreted my post as intending that anybody who is pro-vaccinations is a moron or a zealot. This is not what I meant to say and as of writing this comment I've yet to decide upon a good way to facilitate other readers' understanding of that reference. :c)
As I was implying in wrapping up after the 'argument' had concluded, I had actually been bluffing that I had the sources to hand. I 'am' aware that persons have died or been injured as a result of vaccines - but I'd long since come across those articles. You're right to say that I really should have such matters buttoned-down. ^_^
I also have a view about why vaccine injuries occur - especially in young children - and I personally think that it comes down to the human body being given too many vaccines within too short a time.
This is why I personally support the most reasonable anti-vaxxer view that vaccinations should be spaced out over more years of a person's life.
Vaccines here have to be administered by a medical professional - doctor or nurse. I personally don't like needles either way.
Corporate priorities and vaccines. Yes - the flawed motives and the concerns at play do also apply to medications. This is one reason that I am highly suspicious of long-term and life-long medications (while acknowledging that they are probably essential in the absence of anything better).
I personally felt that every word that you have written here has been a gift. :c) I do welcome reasoned comments regardless of whether they are pro or anti - and I sincerely look forward to coming across your posts and comments again - soon enough! :c)
Thank you for your excellent comment @mysecondself01 ^_^
I didn't know you were needle-phobic. Come to my Emergency and I can cure you of that. I'm as gentle as a breeze (lol) and kids have let me give needles without emla while I sing songs like a whisperer (haha)
Once again my friend - you are talking about a lot of vaccine injuries occurring (especially in young children). Where are your references? The numbers I quoted included allergic reaction including rash or nausea/vomiting. Just a reason to put a colored tag to the ID band the next time they come to the hospital.
Just let it go my friend. We have better things to talk about. And your conversations are also a gift to me. At the moment, I'm supposed to go outside and do the gardening but I really can't be bothered. I'ld rather be here chatting with yourself while I flake out on the computer and rest next to the cat. I've only been doing freewrites and can't think of anything else to write about. I refuse to write about vaccinations (so over that!) So maybe you have another topic to discuss?
PS - I know you don't think I'm a Moron. I just thought it was a funny thing to write at the time. Maybe that does make me a Moron? Who knows?
I have been told that I get wobbly and pale just seeing the needle out (when it wasn't intended for me).
I would be genuinely impressed if you were to succeed in skipping over that storm-tide of tension that preceeds each shot or extraction. ;c)
This because in fairness most nurses that I come across do a very good job (and I let them get on with it - mind over feels).
Again, I have no references (and won't go net-diving for substitutes). And yes we shall surely have more amenable conversations to share (I personally felt your comments to be very fruitful - thank you ^_^).
I've been resisting the urge to join the freewrites trend (I have a nickname to live up to - in some small way) but they do constitute a well spring of creativity. Won't say never on that. :c)
PS. Everybody can be a moron sometimes. I'm pretty sure that the above-mentioned "morons" are pretty decent persons otherwise - probably - and none of us are vaccinated against moronic inclinations (I am certain that a few consider me to be a moron for having posted this :cD).
I look forward to our next crossing - probably not on vaccinations territories. :cP Thanks again @mysecondself01!
If you need articles I have plenty. Let’s take the most recent flu shots in the USA that are killing children and people have been sick for over two months. The list really is a long one and do not feel you need to prove anything to anyone. This was your VP just as they had theirs. Are they doctors, biologist, etc?
Well, occasionally one does come across persons who have medical background. :c)
For me this is a lot less important than the solidness of their points made - but they tend to coincide - which is again fine. :cP
The main story here was less the potential adverse effects of vaccines and more the degree to which some people are programmed to leap upon any such mention.
Of course I remain interested in such articles - but I know well that it won't be a headline act for me, being too much of a generalist. :c)
It was fun shooting down the ill-conceived challenges though (which I'd also faced with regards a somewhat different area). :cP
why are you writing in professor speech? Buahaahah
thank goodness i can read between the lines ...
they posted BS and you busted them on their BS. LOL
that said, you enjoy reading all aspects but really only like generalities. hee hee
love my poetforger ... Eagle xx
Eh... I just respect the personal experiences of people that I come across. :c)
Of course accepting a difference in viewpoint does not necessitate agreeing with it.
Just yesterday I spoke to a mother who swears that the MMA vaccination permanently drastically changed her son's personality and brought on autism over a matter of days.
My heart went out to her as the child is now a teenager and she seems to have soaked up a lot of autism 'and' vaccinations-related information.
Of course she would be a more suited combatant in the war against irresponsible vaccinations - but her motives understandably center around her child - and trying to heal the damage that has been done.
Love ya too. :c) xx
I consider that to be a pretty bad attitude.
The number of people who gets the measles may really be insignificant. I think something of the same i.e. about terrorism - the number of fatalities each year due to terrorism is quite low, still the world is like crazy, we create lots of security theatre to prevent whatever terrorism was happening last year from happening again ... without properly considering if the costs of said security theatre outweights the benefits.
Anyway, the reason why there are so few kids dieing from measles every year is due to the highly successful vaccination program - and we could probably have eradicated measles completely by now (and hence stopped the vaccination program) if it wasn't for the vaccination resistance movement.
They aren't morons because they are pro-vaccinations. ^_^
I consider them morons for the way in which they sought to escallate a simple appeal to spare a thought for the other side of the coin, and frankly looked pretty silly doing so. There is a reason that I do not name names. :c)
However your point is well-taken. I certainly could have used more diplomatic terms than 'zealots' and 'morons' - but I suspect that this post wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as much attention as its gotten so far (which is a continuation of a trend this year).
As an aside, while I mostly agree that deaths due to diseases that could have been prevented is a tragedy, I do feel that laying the blame for measles still being around squarely upon anti-vaxxer's doorsteps is just a little bit off (as measles might still have been around regardless).
I am even more doubtful that pharmaceutical companies backed vaccine initiatives would simply have stopped giving vaccines for eradicated diseases. Has this even occured before?
Thank you for your excellent comment @tobixen. :c)
There exists two eradicated diseases, smallpox and rinderpest. Cattle herds are no longer immunized against RPV, and Smallpox is taken out of the vaccination program long time ago.
I stand corrected. :cP
I am pleasantly surprised to hear that smallpox vaccinations are no longer being given. That eradicated diseases 'can' lead to reduced vaccinations is heartening to me.
Perhaps my suspicion is not as warranted as I had believed.
Thank you also for your upvotes @tobixen.
One possible justification for still vaccinating for smallpox would be to counter biological warfare ... but no, that's unheard of.
It took some few years from the last observed case of smallpox until they officially declared it eradicated, I suppose vaccinations were still given in that period.
Amazing your post
I am happy that you found the post worthy of a read @artakan... :c)
Thank you for stopping by.
Excellent post... Hilarious!
Those scared of measles Google vaccine measles shedding and measles outbreaks occurring in the vaccinated... You're welcome!
I am glad that you found this post entertaining @aydansrecovery. Thank you also for your vote. :c)
I notice that this topic strikes a little close to home for you. :c/
May your dream come true!
Thank you for your kind words!
I can go on and on about how brilliant this is and if someone must label me a conspiracy theorist do be it, I’ll show them then Butt of my gun too. Oh darn, I we t there. Seriously my friend this is a beautiful post and all your statements, especially the right to your viewpoint and how this all developed. This platform was not supposed to become Facebook! Ugh
Thank you, both for your upvote as well as your supportive comment @eaglespirit. ^_^
Now, now - no need to get trigger-butt happy on them. They often are shooting from the hip anyway - especially when they resort to labels. :cP
Its funny that you should mention facebook as that is where the disagreement rolled out. ^_~
Hey I noticed the head on the body too .. but i found it hilarious and creative!! :p
what is wrong with triggers? sometimes people need a bullet to the head bullet to the head .. sorry that's a song ... heee heeee
okay im really just joking. in a sense.
and i do not mind shooting back ..
yes the labeling and then nonsensical labeling and gibberish is why the trigger comes out.
em yeah ... you arent talking to a dum dum re FB and argument ... :p
Hilarious was part of the aim - so I'm happy. ^_^
Eh. I trust that you are indeed joking but remember that some words make you an easy target. Take a shred of truth and pass it through the media machine and you're suddenly "a dangerous trigger-happy home-brew first nation extremist who hate's America's freedom". ;c)
They won't care that you're joking or that you're quoting a song or something... but will happily pervert reality to suit their designs.
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So have a gum gum and chill you lovely dum dum. :cP
Eh again? Wow! Guess you were in the eh mood.
In actuality I am 1/2 NA and a full blooded American that loves my country to the core and loves freedom for all. Not sure where that came from. Yes I know about the msm machine and what Ian going on. 100 percent awake here.
If you have not heard that song you wouldn’t understand what I meant and guessing
that Is another point tobe made. When people do not understand it is easy to twist words and conceptions.
And guess what, I really do not care about MSM apt thwir supporters as they are not the majority of this country, just a paid off few am doin their numbers are dwindling daily.
Funny you use that my mom and I say that to wach other gum gum dum dum ... you dum dum for the gum gum ... anyway Note to self never talk about gun jokes with poetforger again...
Eh... I guess that I was in an 'eh' mood. ;cP
Where 'that' came from isn't meant to be understood because as you know the media has no qualms about being very unfair about its portrayal of individuals. If it were to describe you as my previous comment suggested that they might - then 1/2 of America would automatically believe them and no degree of fallacy would change that. And yes, the MSM (minority or not) would not care either way. They are in a real way, engineers of the majority.
I know that I'm being a little fatalistic and in case it needs to be clarified, I don't see you in this way at all. :cP
Its funny that you had that whole gum gum and dum dum thing going. :cP I meant no offense but only humour. ^_^
I do not agree with that .. so Eh.
Since you do not live here then you may not know.
It just appears this way, have you been to USA?
You did see the numbers of who actually do not support MSM, no? You do know what is going on in the world right? anarchy, people gearing up to fight, you do realize that MSM is failing miserably but droves and numbers and manipulated ... there is no more following only those truly not wanting to know.
yeah ... the dum dum gum gum in your gum gum for a dum dum ... :p
PS. i still have not slept much ... god help me.
I was fortunate enough to spend a few months up in WI. ^_^
Much of that was in the Summer-to-Autumn run-up to the 2004 elections. And I'll never forget how the media character-assassinated Howard Dean's otherwise seemingly strong nomination over "the Dean Scream" in the January prior.
Picket signs upon almost every front lawn. Political messages upon almost every channel be it radio or television.
That was over 13 years ago, and I'm fairly sure that WI isn't representative of the whole of the US (though they generally had a lovely laid-back demeanor (and really nice cheese))... ;cP
I sincerely take your word at face value, you living in the nation that I can only speculate about. :c)
Oh no... lack of sleep is not a good thing. :c/
My son is not vaccinated and perfectly healthy.He only got sick twice so far,because he was playing together fully vaccinated (100% protected HAHAHA), but very sick kids,so he got the flu from them and fought it off within 3 days on his own.
Well thank you for your experience @mindreader :c)
Of course it helps to remember that we all have our quirky ways to combat or get over a cold.
For instance, I once swore at the benefits of eating a true and true 'chilli bowl' to 'break' the cold. It sometimes helped but more often the cold just continued to do its thing. Some strains of the cold are more vicious than others.
I'm not saying that all vaccines are bad,but sometimes you need to let the body fight with the disease on its own in order to develop immunity.You destroy that ability if your first response is always some medication,therefore your kid will always has higher chance to get sick.
Yes, letting the human body create its own immune response is an ideal. It would be great if pharmaceutical remedies were designed and advised to be taken after the first period of a cold has run its course - with the body having done its scrambling to counter. Well - that and symptom alleviation.
Thank you for sharing - and for your vote @mindreader.
While your post was entertaining to read, I can't help but express my discomfort in how your head looks like on Ace Attorney's body.
I object :P
Heh. You spotted it! It seemed like a fun and silly thing to do. :cP
Not 'quite' right - but works well enough anyway.
Glad you enjoyed the read @spiritualmax. Thank you also for your vote. ^_^
Too bad fulltimegeek placed the delegations on hold or it would have been double :/
Not to worry! I just appreciate the gesture in its own right. :c)
Thanks again @spiritualmax ^_^
Great article. There are so many better ways to stay healthy. Just look at vaccines. The fact that there are even payouts should scream red flags. I'm a lawyer as well as comic creator, and I do not buy the settlements are to protect them from bad publicity. If you're product is safe, you go to trial and you defend the damn product. When it comes to products on the marketplace, settlements are because the product is defective. Look at all the payouts here.
• http://www.wakingtimes.com/2017/05/09/whopping-vaccine-injury-payouts-us-fiscal-year-2017-released/
Thank you very kindly, for your up-vote, for your kind comment and more importantly, the very relevant information that you have enriched this article with. :c)
I was no idea that Big Pharma (or the Government/taxpayers?) was paying out cases of compensation. That 'is' very troubling when taken in consideration with the rest of it and 'does' indicate an element of 'deliberation' or perhaps even 'premeditation' to these cases.
In other words, what you have said makes sense - and not just due to my biases as regards the subject matter.
Eye-opening...