Should I up vote this guy ranting? No I might face retaliation
Wow. It actually happened. I caught myself doing it.
I just read this post.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@kushfreeman/when-i-spend-good-time-writing-an-article-for-no-reason
Which is not exactly civil, but with people discovering that they can be censored for non-offensive material and other vague things the civility starts to fall apart. Now technically you can't be censored it is still in the blockchain. You can be stopped from earning, and you can have your reputation dragged to oblivion.
What I caught myself doing is wondering if I should vote on it or comment on it for fear of retaliation. I plan on voting it up as soon as I am done with this post.
Is this what we think will work for steemit?
Will it be a good impression for people coming here with recent posts about how we can't be censored and in reality we kind of can be?
This sets precedence for large groups of people deciding they don't like what other people are talking about and down voting it.
This will likely result in retaliation. People may think, big deal I have so much steem power it won't do anything to me.
Yet will it do to the perception of the platform.
The reason @berniesanders used to justify starting the big flagging of @dollarvigilante should not even be valid. Until you fix discoverability on this website so older posts do not vanish into oblivion it does not MATTER if you've heard people talk about the same topic before. We have a lot of new people. It is not as though finding those old posts is easy. It is not like we can PIN topics. All of these should have the qualifier YET
I see some reasons for a flag button to exist but honestly if this is how it is going to be used it'd likely be better if it wasn't there. However, that'd make the place not really family friendly and easy for porn, and other NSFW type things to flood in. I think it is worth keeping for that. I also think it is worth keeping for spam, as it does improve the experience. I am even in favor of it for plagiarism but if it was a choice between me having to do my own research on plagiarism and having people FLAG something because they think it has already been said before, or because they do not like it then I'd say the plagiarism is minor in comparison.
It has went in a very short period of time from one of the most free and civil places where people can talk about just about anything to a place where a few that are not happy can suck the soul out of people.
Their intentions are GOOD I can see that from their posts. They are however purely subjective and biased. There was absolutely nothing wrong with @dollarvigilante's post. Yet it could be over the top and such but that is how some people are. There are also other people who are pretentious and think they need to police what other people are allowed to talk about. I'd rather read a filth laden post that was almost 100% profanity than have someone deciding to censor and restrict what other people read, post, etc.
The argument may be that they didn't. It has impact, just as if you stole from someone. When it is spam, plagiarism, or NSFW improperly marked you won't get much of a peep. When you start going for people outside of that spectrum you are going to make enemies.
Is that what we want to start doing here?
PLEASE rethink how you use that flag. If it keeps going on then the model will need to be changed.
This environment suddenly feels hostile. We are being told which tags we can and cannot use without penalty.
How are all the new people that come to this site going to know your esoteric dos and don'ts?
I am NOT one saying whales are too powerful, I've actually advocated that people should be happy ANYTIME someone is uplifted here as it increases the chances of spreading it around for anyone. That does not mean I am in favor of a few people dictating how everyone else is allowed to speak without penalty.
I've posted many Anarchy posts, so have many other people here. If you haven't read them then you should because you'll understand pretty quickly that this type of behavior is anathema to the concepts we believe in.
So what can we do?
Can we solve this peacefully with people agreeing not to abuse the flag?
Is it going to require a hard fork and change to the code?
This will take some thought. It can't stand as it is if you want to promote this place as a place of no censorship and not have people call you out for hypocrisy. Freedom of Speech does not exist to protect popular speech. It exists to protect unpopular speech.
I am not using STEEMIT to spam. I only use it when my post related directly to steemit. This one does. It is almost 100% about steemit. It also has something to do with steemitabuse since I know that is a tag people policing spam and other issues often use.
EDIT: And @tombstone I saw you trying to head this off. I read your comment. I think you were spot on.
EDIT 2: I've had numerous people mention @neoxian as abusing flagging. I spoke to him once and he had a legit reason for the flag the user was complaining about. However, I just read this exchange and if he is intended to be moderating this thing then that is totally the wrong attitude. If you want to escalate to all out warfare then that is the attitude to have. There should NEVER be retaliatory flagging but that is where this is all leading.
EDIT 3: I believe the user was wrong in flagging @neoxian as well though. I simply believe retaliatory flagging should not be used. Both parties seem to have done that. NOTE: The user tells me these flags have been removed, so this is settled. Emotions do flair up, we are all humans. If we act in haste out of emotion hopefully we will have the good grace to reverse our mistake. @neoxian has done so, and I have asked the user if he did as well.
I fully agree with this.
I posted my thoughts on this topic here:
Flagging Etiquette and Practice
https://steemit.com/steemit/@onceuponatime/flagging-etiquette-and-practice
Also if you haven't weighed in here New Content Flagging System with Feedback there is a really good discussion about adding reasons for flagging content.
I like the reasons... though I think you've likely covered every LEGIT reason without needing an OTHER. Since that basically means it could be for any other reason "It sux" "He's an idiot" "I.D.10.T. Error"
etc.
But the point being that if the "other" button was selected and someone wrote "it sux" there should be a way to reverse that type of flag as in my mind that is not a valid reason to flag it. Sometimes people could also leave a different reason without need ing to comment of they don't wish to.
Possibly having flagging and downvoting be separate features is something I've pondered. Maybe having the option to say you downvoted because you disagreed but didn't find it malicious or found that the same content had been covered elsewhere often (like @berniesanders did with @dollarvigilante) but @dollarvigilante's content I don't believe should tarnish his reputation the way a downvote/flag does.
Hopefully that idea makes sense.
Possibly allowing users to optionally say why they upvoted content (humorous, engaging, etc) would be an interesting feature to explore. You could then see a metric that said. "you have 90% of your votes from humor" So maybe you could then focus you energy more often on that aspect instead of just knowing that people appreciate their content.
Really just throwing out ideas, because the more discussion that can be had, the better the experience will be for newer users.
I've been wondering about a separate down vote that is not the flag that does not take money. If they want to have it have an effect perhaps factor it into the trending algorithm so that it is not weighted by money. Then you could have a top worth tab if you wanted to see actual money, that'd even inspire a CONTROVERSIAL type tab if they wanted to do that, but the effect it has now is that of an attack on people.
Your ideas are good.
I read your post and it is extremely well thought out and is exactly in line with my own thoughts.
Yet as I stated when people were mentioning esoteric reasons for flagging a post. "I asked how are new people supposed to know these rules?"
So I guess our challenge is finding a way to make sure everyone is aware of your etiquette. It'd be nice if the first time someone used the flag it popped up something similar to a EULA that explained this etiquette. I do not know how easy this would be to accomplish as I have not looked at the codebase. This is beta though and all I can do is help with my ideas.
Thank you for writing that. It is important and I'll likely point other people to it.
Yes some sort of general community consensus should be proposed and the reasons for flagging should be outlined generally, because some see flagging as simple downvoting and some as more than that. A whale posting this for discussion would be extremely valuable, because minds like yours @dwinblood are very valuable and I think we have both expanded on one another's ideas and can take criticism and implement if efficiently.
I care about this place. This flagging hasn't happened to me so much that it impacted me. I do have old posts that people flagged weeks after I wrote them but it didn't really impact me because they were not very powerful, and I'd already received payout.
So when I write this it is because I like this community a lot, and I can see it's huge potential, and I see this as being a big problem that could scare off people. Yes, some will stick and persevere, and we could be l33t and say "too bad", but this is also an investment so more people able to use this platform without barriers is a good thing IMO.
Most definitely! Always glad to have people focused on heading toward the same objective, while bringing others alongside.
Flagging people absolutely does not equal censorship. The post is still going to be there regardless of how many times it is flagged. Aside from that, tags are necessary for people to find the kind of content they want and get rid of the kind they don't. Spamming tags completely ruins that and is rightly being flagged. That's the whole point of steemit, that everything is judged by the people. If the people are annoyed that there are many posts with the same content as other posts, they should be able to flag it.
And you expect new people to know your esoteric rules?
You expect them to know people already wrote about a similar topic they are writing about?
You expect them to know what tags they can and cannot use without getting flagged?
DO I GET TO MAKE UP RULES FOR YOU? (I don't want to... I stated that question to drill a point home)
EDIT: For clarity, I was not one of those flagged this way. I just see the harm this is doing.
Using the right category is absolutely not an esoteric rule. It is a rule that is implemented on every well managed forum on the internet. That's just about as esoteric as wearing clothes when you go outside.
It's not just one person, it's a huge amount of posts that hit the front page. WAY too many people write about steemit. For this site to reach mass adoption, it needs more content that isn't related to steemit, as most people don't care about the complex inner workings of this site.
The tags they can use without getting flagged are tags that relate to the post. I wouldn't tag this post with "art" because it has absolutely nothing to do with art. In a store, putting a lawnmower in with the food "to get it more exposure" is frankly stupid. Organizing things makes life easier for everyone.
No reply button available for the comment I'm really replying to. Replying to this...
https://steemit.com/steemit/@dwinblood/should-i-up-vote-this-guy-ranting-no-i-might-face-retaliation#@benthegameboy/re-dwinblood-re-benthegameboy-re-dwinblood-re-benthegameboy-re-dwinblood-should-i-up-vote-this-guy-ranting-no-i-might-face-retaliation-20160811t024435677z
"...Nobody who thinks about what tags are appropriate for a post and what aren't should ever tag a post incorrectly...."
With the exception of the "steemit" tag, I mostly agree. It is incorrect for the steemit tag, though. I've been using Internet forums since the days of dial-up modems, usenet news, Bulletin Boards, and AOL chat rooms, but I was confused about the use of the steemit tag until I happened to stumble across someone's unauthoritative post on the topic today. Does the "steemit" tag mean "pertaining specifically to steemit" or does it mean a "general catch-all for everyone on steemit"? I could've argued it either way until I saw someone's strong opinion on the topic today. Fortunately, I didn't step in that particular landmine and get my reputation crushed, but how many other landmines are out there waiting to trip me up while I am learning the ropes?
Anyway, I don't have any problem with community enforced rules, and from the top-level post, I am fairly confident that @dwinblood doesn't either. I won't speak for anyone else, but what concerns me is the apparent (?) combination of arbitrariness and severity with the reputation system as it is currently implemented. Every STEEM/SP holder has a vested interest in getting this right. It's not just about the user experience, it's also about the value of our holdings. If over-flagging drives users away, our asset loses value. If poor quality content buries high quality content, then our asset loses value.
Bingo. I've been using computers since 1982. My first modem was a 300 BAUD modem. I was using the internet in 1989 and 1990 well before WWW hit. I in fact designed what were precursors to forums on a Vax VMS system used by my school. I've used most of the social media platforms, hundreds of forums, and quite a number of portals that no longer exist.
Expecting users to "know" and being biased about what is "common sense" is poor design. That type of thinking ALWAYS fails. There are too many people with many different levels of intelligence, and it isn't even an intelligence thing. People approach problems differently. They think differently.
You cannot operate from ASSUMED rules, and what you consider COMMON SENSE, or because it was this way somewhere else. That doesn't work. Well actually it can work but with a lot of bumps, and pissed off people. Usually you only get away with it if it is tied to a job or some other thing which kind of forces people to DEAL WITH IT and use it.
The attitude produces piss poor software designs from a large scale deployment perspective. You simply cannot expect people to think the way you do. If anyone takes a Systems Analysis & Design course in Software Engineering or Computer Science they are usually shown this.
I've been using the internet since CompuServe on amber screens. And let me tell you, life is good now.
How long ago were you new? I am about 4 weeks in. I do remember the first few times I posted not quite having a hang of the tags. I believe my first post was possibly in steemit. Why? Because, I looked at another post and emulated it.
You have VERY flawed thinking if you believe everyone approaches the problem the same way as you and I. They don't.
Have you ever written any code? If you have then you'll know what I mean. You write code designed to use a specific way, and you drop it in a big user pool and they end up using it in ways you did not predict. This may require making more error correction, or other things to help.
The point is you can't create a platform designed for the public and slam them when they are NEW for not knowing this issue.
I will say I do think most topics I put in #steemit likely were valid for that, but I can't say 100%.
It is also not something I would be sitting there thinking "Should I be doing this?" I make up my own tags, or I look at the list of current tags and I pick 4 (yes I only use 4) that I believe fit my topic.
Yet that is MY procedure. No one taught it to me. I can't guarantee most of the public will do the same thing as me. To expect that they would is ludicrous.
Except that slamming people for not knowing what to do is what every other platform does. If you post what you had for lunch today on some band's Facebook page, the post is obviously going to be deleted. If you were to post something about a new game coming out on /r/askreddit it would be deleted because that is obviously not the right place for it. You have to assume that there is a baseline level of knowledge for anyone using any website or else you will get stuck explaining every single thing which is not an good use of time. Nobody should have to be told that "You only should add tags that relate to your post". That should be assumed knowledge. Every other site has knowledge that is assumed, and steemit's will have to be that you should never tag posts with tags that don't relate to it's content.
We hit the nesting limit... responding to:
I was under the impression we were trying to be better than the other platforms.
That people didn't want the reddit style chats where moderators nuke anything they don't like or disagree with so many channels are 100% circle jerk with people only agreeing with everything.
So to be honest with you I don't give a damn what the other platforms do. We can learn from their mistakes, and I believe this is one of them.
Steemit is already completely different than that simply because it has no central moderation. Posts cannot be deleted, as they are and will be present until the entire blockchain is gone from every computer. Circlejerk is clearly not an issue. Tagging posts properly isn't hard to do and greatly improves the overall quality of the site. Nobody who thinks about what tags are appropriate for a post and what aren't should ever tag a post incorrectly.
You are correct it is not difficult. Yet it is still a learned thing. They wish to attract a lot of people here. Have you ever by chance taken a Systems Analysis & Design course? Since that focuses on exactly this problem. Assuming because something works for you that it is easy for everyone else. I am not writing any of these posts because they are happening to me. I am writing them because I am seeing them happening to other people. In many cases in situations where they shouldn't even BE happening. So no matter what your opinion is of how anyone should have "common sense" to do this is. It is irrelevant as I'm already seeing people having problems and most of these people are fairly tech savy. We want to attract a larger audience and these problems are likely to multiply. My posts are because this platform is AWESOME and its potential is WORLD CHANGING. It doesn't need baggage from other places that is known to cause strife. It is totally not needed. Fortunately it is in beta and hopefully the people that are designing it will see these things and think of some more experiments to try on us. I am fine with being a guinea pig. I've written a lot of software in my time, and I've seen a lot of software fail due to assumptions and arrogance of the programmers believing everyone should do it there way. I fired one at the behest of one place I worked at that had a PhD in Comp Sci and I took his job and fixed all of his code. His problem was exactly the same as yours. He said "it's easy... all they have to do is X" We were dealing with nurses, and doctors. They did it many different ways and it really didn't matter one bit what that programmer's opinion was on this. It mattered how the users used the software and what their perception was. Many pissed off nurses in boardrooms tend to trump a programmers opinion. Likewise, your opinion on what is easy and how everyone should intuitively know how to do these things WILL and IS being trumped by the fact we have a fairly technical user base and they are bumping into issues with this.
"Using the right category is absolutely not an esoteric rule. It is a rule that is implemented on every well managed forum on the internet."
Even so, the punishment should fit the crime. I agree that flagging is not censorship, but there's also something not quite right when someone gets the same penalty for using six hashtags on an otherwise well written post as they get for plagiarizing an entire article. And although what I've seen is anecdotal, it appears that some of these flag-downs are resulting in what is basically a "life sentence without the possibility of parole."
I'm still learning, so I haven't formed any strong opinions yet, but when new people like me are having reservations about even hitting the "Post" button, I think we might be seeing some warning flags.
Having enough flags to have your posts be grayed out is not a "life sentence without the possibility of parole", as just today I saw someone who made an apology post about spamming tags and their posts were not grayed out anymore.
As I said earlier, using the correct tags is not something that is difficult. Just thinking about what tags will fit the post rather than spamming the tags that have the most prolific rewards is enough.
This is one of the people who replied besides you.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@onceuponatime/flagging-etiquette-and-practice
You should read that.
I have already read that, in fact I have read it before this too, and it does not change my opinion.
I, too, am getting tired of the "flaggots" on here. I think flagging should be rare and only to draw attention to a post that is not tagged correctly or involves child porn, murder for hire, or other actual crimes. The flag should cause a review of the material by a witness and corrective action should be taken.
Flagging to lower the payout because you think it doesn't deserve whatever money other people have given it is like going to Wal-Mart and taking money from the till because you don't like the profit they are making. It's theft.
Flagging because you don't like someone or their opinions or writing style is just bullying. Don't like someone or what they have to say, then don't read them.
I don't flag people if I disagree with them or the popularity of their post. I don't want to take away any money they have earned from people who have voluntarily given it to them. I will make a comment if I feel it is warranted but that is all. Unfortunately, I do fear retaliation and flagging from those people.
I do hope this issue gets resolved soon or I do see a split in the community.
I already received absurd retaliation from a user tonight, so your fear is certainly warranted.
Thanks, you explained it in pretty clear terms. Hard to refute the WalMart analogy, along with the bullying definition.
It's interesting. I was on board with the reputation system when it was announced. It seems like there's got to be a balance somewhere. Based on tonight's ground-swell of posts about flagging, it seems like the scale might've tipped too far.
Hard numbers are needed. Hopefully the folks writing the code are paying attention to the data. If the flaggers have too much power now, maybe the coders can tweak the reputation algorithm.
Personally, aside from defending myself against abusive flags, I have a hard time imagining when I'd use a flag. If I don't like a post, I just close it. If I think it is plagiarized, I'll comment to that effect with a link to the source. But, I don't object to judicious use of flags by others for things like spam and untagged nsfw content.
The reputation system works fine if you are dinging people for things that should be dinged spam, plagiarism, and NSFW not labeled as NSFW.
Everything else is subject to opinion and someone elses bias. The post may be fine. So instead of simply not voting for it, they feel the need to steal what someone else gave that person, and perhaps also give them a pretty good reputation hit.
What is worse is they are doing it on things people can't possibly be expected to be aware of.
The thing that I thought was really important from your top-level post is the chilling effect that it's having. I hardly write anything here, but as I was reading tonight's feed, I found myself thinking something like: "I hope I never make @Example.Com mad, and I have no idea what I can do to be sure that I don't."
Yeah I was totally thinking. "I wonder if I speak this guy I will end up on @berniesanders and the possee's shit list?" Then I slapped myself in the forehead and realized what I was saying. I thought it was pretty damn important so I took the plunge and wrote this post. Yes with a little bit of paranoia about whether I would face retaliation... and as you can see by the end and extreme sense of need to justify what tags I am using. Like new people are going to know that stuff.
The other thing to keep in mind is from the steem whitepaper. As I recall, they anticipate that the value of STEEM will be anchored to the quality of content and curation. For STEEM to gain and hold value, they need quality content, and it needs to be easy to find. To some extent, those goals may be in conflict. Aggressive curation discourages content innovation, but lax curation buries the quality content where no one can find it. I really think the coders need to study the data and keep the algorithm balanced. Their job isn't really to optimize for the community's tastes, but for STEEM's value (although the two may be largely the same).
I'm no more comfortable telling people what to flag for than I am telling them what to write about. The algorithm has to deal correctly with people being people.
I know the feeling. I had three comments and a post flagged by one guy out of spite. He flagged a post that I wrote this morning - which was completely unrelated to the person's post that we were on. He just went to my main blog page and flagged it. I lost my rewards on it and 4 reputation points...because he felt like being an asshole.
I wouldn't really say that kind of behavior is beneficial for the platform.
You flagged me so I returned the favor.
Yeah. I flagged you because you inappropriately flagged a new user who had already been addressed by berniesanders, who did NOT flag him over the tag - which couldn't be changed anyway.
So, in retaliation, you flagged three of my comments, then went to my blog and flagged an unrelated post of mine from earlier in the day. You don't think that's abusing the flagging option? You are precisely what is wrong with platforms like this.
It was pointed out the a downvote button would work just fine, along with a flag for abusive post. When you think about it, that's what a flag is for, it's an alert to a witness. If someone is being dumb, what remedy do you have other than to wave down the busy website developers?
TRUE!!
I upvoted but ugh somebody will end up flagging it or something.
Spot on. The community needs to keep an eye on the "whales" and those who have built a lot of Steem Power. Some of them are abusing their influence and it's completely counterproductive and the exact opposite spirit that this community should be promoting.
Abuse of Steem Power will sink this ship faster than anything else.
I've noticed this crap too man, it's absurd
yep fuck the downvote whales
I feel like today turned into A FLAG DAY. WHY DO IN GOT A FEELING THAT THEREGONNA BE A POST WHERE SOMEONE GONNA SAY IT'S FLAG FOOTBALL. :)