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RE: The Lie of Jesus Christ and how his real name was Yeshua HaMashiach

in #philosophy8 years ago (edited)

I totally agree that the worship of Jesus is wrong. No where in the New Testament does he ask for worship, but he defers any worship and honor to his Father. With that said though, there are a couple of things here I don't think are accurate...

  • You mention "the church", but I think you're referring to the established order of the Christian church. This doesn't really make any sense since Christianity didn't exist as an established religion until around 325AD (give or take depending on how you would classify the beginning).
  • The "church" that existed at the time of Jesus' life, the one with which he identified since he was a teacher within it, was Judaism. Jesus was a Jew.
  • The very name Yeshua is simply the Hebrew version of the more modern, Latin, Jesus.
  • What you identify as Yeshua's last name, HaMashiach, isn't a last name at all, it's an honorific or a label. Its literal translation from Hebrew is "the messiah". To the best of my knowledge, the Jewish people didn't use family names back then. If Yeshua did have a "full name" it would have something more like "Yeshua ben Yosef" which would be translated to "Yeshua/Jesus, son of Yosef/Joseph".

I do believe the church has led people far, far astray from what Yeshua was trying to express. It doesn't take a very deep study to see that. However, when you do get into a deep study, it turns out there is much more mysticism in the New Testament than pretty much anyone realizes. If you've ever done study on Jewish Kabbalah, go back and check out the books attributed to John. There are so many things scattered throughout those books that just start shouting a different narrative than what people were raised to understand.

Keep searching, talking and questioning. I believe a large part of the life we have was made specifically for our pursuit of HaShem.

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From John 20:24-29

Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

  • 1 Corinthians 15:28 - When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
  • John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
  • John 5:30 - "I can do nothing alone. I judge only the way I am told. And my judgment is right, because I am not trying to please myself. I want only to please the one who sent me."
  • John 5:43 - "I have come from my Father and speak for Him, but you don’t accept me. But when other people come speaking only for themselves, you accept them."
  • John 1:33-34 - Then John said this for everyone to hear: “I also did not know who the Messiah was. But the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘You will see the Spirit come down and rest on a man. He is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ I have seen this happen. I saw the Spirit come down from heaven like a dove and rest on this man. So this is what I tell people: ‘He is the Son of God.’”
  • John 6:38 - I came down from heaven to do what God wants, not what I want.
  • John 8:28 - So he said to them, “You will lift up the Son of Man. Then you will know that I Am. You will know that whatever I do is not by my own authority. You will know that I say only what the Father has taught me.
  • John 8:42 - Jesus said to them, “If God were really your Father, you would love me. I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come by my own authority. God sent me.
  • John 8:54 - Jesus answered, “If I give honor to myself, that honor is worth nothing. The one who gives me honor is my Father. And you say that he is your God.
  • John 10:34 - Jesus answered, “It is written in your law that God said, ‘I said you are gods.’
  • John 11:27 - Martha answered, “Yes, Lord. I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God. You are the one who was coming to the world.”
  • John 11:41-42 - So they moved the stone away from the entrance. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you heard me. I know that you always hear me. But I said these things because of the people here around me. I want them to believe that you sent me.”
  • John 12:49-50 - That is because what I taught was not from myself. The Father who sent me told me what to say and what to teach. And I know that whatever he says to do will bring eternal life. So the things I say are exactly what the Father told me to say.”
  • John 15:1 - Jesus said, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
  • Matthew 8:29 - They came to Jesus and shouted, “What do you want with us, Son of God? Did you come here to punish us before the right time?”
  • Matthew 24:36 - “No one knows when that day or time will be. The Son and the angels in heaven don’t know when it will be. Only the Father knows.
  • Mark 1:11 - A voice came from heaven and said, “You are my Son, the one I love. I am very pleased with you.”
  • Mark 1:24 - “Jesus of Nazareth! What do you want with us? Did you come to destroy us? I know who you are—God’s Holy One!”
  • Mark 3:11 - Some people had evil spirits inside them. When the evil spirits saw Jesus, they bowed before him and shouted, “You are the Son of God!”
  • Mark 5:7-8 - As Jesus was saying, “You evil spirit, come out of this man,” the man shouted loudly, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you in God’s name not to punish me!”

I do have a bunch of other New Testament references that illustrate what I'm saying, and I don't think I have a compiled list of all the things I've found anywhere. Some of them need a bit of explaining Jewish culture at the time to grasp so I'll skip them for now. I also have a bunch of Old Testament references that illustrate why it doesn't make sense that the G-d of the Jews would actually become a man.

I don't disagree with any of those verses (obviously). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God in three persons.

John 14:8-10

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, carrying out His work.

And just before Jesus ascended to heaven, he gave his disciples this Great Commission: (Matthew 28:16-20)

Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name [singular] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

hmm. I have read that free masons and other esoteric orders have studied the old testament as mysticism.....I do not believe everything written in the bible is completely matter of fact..but rather metaphors and things of this like.

The best thing to do is throw out all such esoteric orders and just master the original inspired Scriptures.

yes, jesus proved to him that he was god.....as everything is god. Those who deny the truth of this deny the truth of god. it is simple.

That would be pantheism. There is a strong distinction between the Creator and His creation. Heaven and earth will pass away. God won't.

Who Jesus (aka, The Word) is John 1:1-14

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ...The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus was prophesied many hundreds of years in advance. From ~700 BC the Jewish Prophet Isaiah wrote: (Isaiah 9:6-7)

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.…

There were Christian churches before the Apostle Paul even did his first missionary journey: this from roughly 0040 AD:

Acts 11:25-26 Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him back to Antioch. So for a full year they met together with the church and taught large numbers of people. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.

Christians were persecuted from the stoning of Stephen in ~0035 AD until Constantine made it the official religion of the Roman empire in the early 300's. But there were many famous Christians prior to that. For example:

Clement of Rome The epistle known as 1 Clement (c. 96) is attributed to this early bishop of Rome. It was widely read in the churches and is considered the earliest Christian epistle outside the New Testament. Tradition identifies Clement as the fourth pope.

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-110) was the third bishop of Antioch and a student of the Apostle John. En route to his martyrdom in Rome, Ignatius wrote a series of letters to various churches, and these have been preserved as an example of the theology of the earliest Christians. Important topics addressed in these letters include ecclesiology, the sacraments, and the central role of bishops in authorized orthodox teaching.

Polycarp (c. 69-c. 156) was the bishop of Smyrna (now İzmir in Turkey). In 155, the Smyrnans demanded Polycarp's execution as a Christian, and he died a martyr. He was also an important figure in the controversy over the date on which Christians celebrate Easter.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-211/216), was a distinguished teacher in the city which became one of early Christianity's most important intellectual centers. He united Greek philosophical traditions with Christian doctrine and thus developed what later became known as Christian Platonism.

Origen (c. 185 - c. 254) also taught in Alexandria, reviving the catechetical school where Clement had taught. He interpreted scripture allegorically and further developed the tradition of Christian Platonism. Origen taught a doctrine of universal salvation in which even demons would eventually be reunited with God. Although some of his views were declared anathema in the sixth century by the Fifth Ecumenical Council,[2] Origen's thought exercised significant influence.

Irenaeus of Lyons (d. near the end of the third century) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. A disciple of Polycarp, his best-known book, Against Heresies (c. 180), enumerated heresies and attacked them. Irenaeus wrote that the only way for [Christian]s to retain unity was to humbly accept one doctrinal authority of orthodox bishops, with disputes resolved by episcopal councils. His work is a major source for understanding the heterodox movements of the second century and the orthodox churches' attitude in combating them.

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 293-May 2, 373), also known as St. Athanasius the Great, was a theologian who later became the patriarch ("pope") of Alexandria, a leader of immense significance in the theological battles of the fourth century. He is best remembered for his role in the conflict with Arianism, although his influence covers a vast array of theological topics.

Tertullian Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus (c. 160-c. 225) was a prolific writer of apologetic, theological, anti-heretical, and ascetic works. He is believed to have introduced the Latin term "trinitas" (Trinity) to the Christian vocabulary and also the formula "three persons, one substance"—tres personae, una substantia. Later in life, Tertullian joined the Montanists, a heretical sect, but his writings by and large are considered as a shining example of orthodoxy.

Cyprian (died September 14, 258) was bishop of Carthage and an important early Christian writer who eventually died a martyr at Carthage. He is particularly important in defining the Christian church as "Catholic," meaning "universal," and his insistence that there can be no salvation outside of the Christian church.

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 293-May 2, 373), also known as St. Athanasius the Great, was a theologian who later became the patriarch ("pope") of Alexandria, a leader of immense significance in the theological battles of the fourth century. He is best remembered for his role in the conflict with Arianism, although his influence covers a vast array of theological topics.

You conveniently skipped the fact that he was exiled by Constantine and that on his deathbed, Constantine requested baptism be performed by Eusebius who was an outspoken supporter of Arianism, even so far as to being part of Arius' defense at Nicea.

Oh yes. The errors introduced in Christianity start piling up even faster with Constantine and it gets worse century by century until the Reformation of the 1500's made the effort to get back to Biblical Christianity. But even today, even in this thread, you can see people trying to get all the facts from Scripture into their heads to gain a correct understanding.

I don't fault anyone for quoting scriptures and comparing notes with others doing that same thing. I do fault those who make stuff up that is not in the Scriptures. No wonder the average person is so confused.

My only point in listing these example Church Fathers is to demonstrate that the Church emphatically did not start with Constantine. He merely made it the official religion of Rome for the first time. That was nice for those who had been persecuted by Rome the preceding 300 years, but then the corruption begins as the power of the state begins to attract the wrong kind of church leaders - those seeking power and wealth, not truth.

What I meant by "The church" was the established order that hung him on the cross....I agree with the last name though. good point. Thanks for the insight.

"The church" has a special meaning reserved for the generations of people after Jesus resurrection who believe that Jesus is the long awaited Jewish Messiah. Those who hung him on the cross are those who didn't recognize him when he showed up on schedule as prophesied 69*7=483 Jewish years earlier to the day in Daniel 9.

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. -- Matthew 16:18

What is hashem?

Yeah the thing is it goes really deep. It does have alot to do with mysticism though and I'd kind of like to get closer to the truth myself. I'm not one who likes research too much, it's my weakness since im so impatient...even with this article...some of the things I am saying are not facts and I should have posed them as questions or something. I kind of rushed into it.

HaShem translates to "the name". It's sort of a nickname for G-d, like the word G-d itself, Jehovah and Adonai. The Jewish people believe HaShem has an actual name and it is hinted at in the "I AM" that people always talk about. Old Jewish customs had it that the high priest was only allowed to speak it once a year during a certain festival but because of the sacredness of it and all the struggles throughout Jewish history, the knowledge of the correct pronunciation has been lost. Basically these "nicknames" are used because Jews are so worried about using His name in vain that they go to extra lengths to make SURE they don't use His name inappropriately.

Don't worry, I've been quick on the Post trigger finger myself.

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