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RE: Fear of Voluntaryism due to Statist Thinking
I'd like to add;
My reply was not to go in debate or discussion with you (for which I don't have the time) but more a reply on this;
Or, perhaps you can simply point me to other resources on the internet where I can learn more.
The questions you don't have to answer they are more rethorical (I believe it's called) to show where volutaryism is based upon, which you can do research on....... if you like of course.
I hope you don't mind that I don't want to do long discussions that take a lot of my time and energy.
P.S. I scanned the post you linked and the replies, will read it furrow later.
Peace :)
I'm beginning to wonder if my struggle with understanding voluntaryism is cultural or based on a fundamental difference in way of thinking. I don't view taxation as a tribute to the ruling class. I see it as a means to pay for public services and infrastructure.
I also don't understand why everything ends up with guns and violence. Most of the arguments I've heard so far end with this. Like jaywalking can end in shootouts with the cops. I have trouble comprehending this kind of reasoning. All I can think of is, "What kind of country do you currently live in that every single infraction of the law ends in extreme violence?"
As for laws that you deem wrong, that's an interesting one. If most people deem it wrong then I wonder how it became law in the first place. If only a handful of people find it wrong then tough luck. Either comply, don't comply and face the consequences, leave the jurisdiction of that particular law, or stay and fight to scrap it.
In any case, I'll try to do more research.
Let me walk you trough. ( edit If you want...of course)
What do you personally advocate the cop you hired, should do to me personally if I jaywalk (I did not cause harm in any way)?
Edit (by way of answering these questions I like to explore what you personally think)
Some questions might feel like guilt tripping (I believe it's called that, I'm not a native english speaker or writer)
But that is not the purpose of the questions. They are not personal attacks.
If you don't want to answer that is fine also, no problem at all. Just say so. :)
Well, jaywalking is usually a minor offense and a fine. If you're crossing the street away from the cop, it's unlikely he can be bothered to chase after you. Maybe he remembers your face, maybe he takes a photo and if you'e identified, you receive a bill in the mail.
If you're crossing the street towards the cop, then he may signal to you to stop and turn around. If you insist on crossing the street anyway or he didn't see you initially or you didn't see him, then he stops you after you've crossed over to his side. He then gives you a ticket which you need to pay, not on the spot but at some point.
In my experience (as in, observing other people jaywalk with traffic cops around), cops would never physically stop you from crossing the street. I don't even know how that would work. He runs after you into the street? I suppose he could but I've never seen it. Mostly, I've just seen angry cops. In any case, I don't see how it escalates to shooting. I'm not even sure if traffic cops have guns. But, I guess it's different in your experience or in your country.
Edit:
No problem at all. I'm not a sensitive person so I never take things personally. I also have no emotional or sentimental attachments to any of my beliefs. I'm always happy to challenge my beliefs or explore beliefs that are different from my own. I argue in favor of my beliefs in order to prove them right or prove them wrong. If proven wrong, then I have no problem changing my beliefs at that instant.
So regarding voluntaryism, this is something new to me and I find it interesting. I'm still trying to understand it but so far I agree with some aspects while I disagree with others.
I edited the reply before this one you might want to read it.
But I see you have given me an answer already.
You describe what might happen and what your experiences are. But what I wanted to know is what you advocate being done to me.
Can I make up out of you're answer you would advocate for them to fine me, sending a ticket to my house?
Sorry, you're right. I didn't actually answer the question. Yes, I would advocate for a fine. Like a ticket/bill sent to your house, for example.
If you don't pay, you get another bill later with interest. If you simply refuse to pay, other action will be taken against you. Maybe something you own will be repossessed. Or, the amount will be automatically deducted from your salary. If you're self employed, maybe other sanctions like loss of credentials or license to operate your business.
There are any number of actions that can be taken but at this point it is no longer an issue of jaywalking. It's a matter of owing money to the government, or state, or city, or town. Whatever the case may be, you will no longer be welcome in that community or society. There are other ways to make your life miserable without resorting to armed violence.
Thanks for the answer.
I read your edit b.t.w. :)
I back up a little.
If I saw you walking somewhere (maybe i.m.o. dangerous)...you have not harmed anyone and not brought someone in danger, would it be ok for me ( a normal human being) to take your money? Giving you a paper with a sum of money on it directly, or send it to you by mail threatening you to send higher bills, if you don't pay. Would I have the right to do that?
I edited to clarify
No, unless it's your job to do so. And by job, I mean you try to enforce the law (maybe blow a whistle, give me an angry look, or yell at me) or help carry out the "punishment" by writing a ticket. It would not be your job to try and take my money or threaten me. That's someone else's job.
By the way, your opinions or feelings on my actions are irrelevant as far as the law is concerned. That said, you could choose to turn a blind eye and let me get away with it. Or let me go with a warning.
In general, laws allow for leeway in the amount of punishment but there is a hard limit on the maximum. So for jaywalking it could be anything from simply letting you go up until the maximum of writing you a ticket. It can't be more than that.
I meant with "normal human being" not a policeman or government employee of some sort.
So you answer is, no.......right?
And I can take from that, that you, or anyone else of the normal human beings, on this world, would not have a right to do that to me? (As described in that situation.)
I add an in between question waiting for your answer on the above question. Don't want to jump conclusions here :)
If I saw you on the street and you stole a purse from someone, would I have the right, as a normal human being, to stop you take the purse and give it back to whom it belonged.
Or if you were killing people with a gun ( I know it's an extreme example ;) would I have the right to stop you (as a normal human being)
It can take a while before I reply...It's late here.
Thanks for so far :)