What Muslims Believe
Should you be worried about the hundreds of millions of people who subscribe to a religion whose “holy” book includes this?:
“Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones … cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.”
That same “holy” book also says this:
“If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods’ … do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death.”
And this:
“If you hear it said … that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods’ … you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.”
Surely there is reason to fear anyone who would openly profess a belief in such a barbaric religion! Would not belonging to such a death cult, in and of itself, constitute a threat to all free people, and would not holding such beliefs justify defensive force, to keep out or forcibly evict such believers from civilized, enlightened society?
Well, no.
No, you don’t need to worry about them. And no, you don’t need to violently attack them for merely subscribing to a religion. In fact, it would be absolutely immoral for you to do so. Unless and until an individual uses or directly threatens violence, it is not morally justified to attack him merely for the label he uses to describe his faith. If you disagree, there's something you should know...
I don’t mention this only as a “gotcha” thing (although that in itself can be entertaining). Having publicly quoted those passages on several occasions, I find that only a tiny percentage of self-described “Christians” even know that the Bible says such things anywhere in it. So no, we don’t need to be scared of all of the Christians who revere the Bible—the book which includes the savage, brutal quotes shown above. Why not? Because what that book says does not match what the vast majority of self-described “Christians” believe, and does not match how they behave.
Most of the time I avoid talking about people’s religious beliefs, because it usually just offends people and makes them defensive, rather than making anyone think about anything. However, this point justifies making an exception. It was only a couple of years ago when something rather significant occurred to me:
There are plenty of passages in the Bible which can be used to justify being a judgmental, obnoxious, hostile, uncaring, even violent asshole. At the same time, there are also plenty of passages that instruct people to show empathy and compassion, exercising kindness and forgiveness. And most of the self-described Christians I know try to abide by the latter, and essentially ignore the former. In other words, they pick and choose which parts to believe and follow, and their picking and choosing makes them far more moral and righteous than if they literally followed everything the Bible tells them about how they should behave.
To be blunt, most people who call themselves “Christians” are Christians purely by accident, and by default. They grew up around people who held certain beliefs, and naturally tended to just adopt those beliefs, and articles of faith, without question. They didn’t choose it at all; they merely accepted a system of faith handed to them by others. And that is true of most members of most other religions, too. If it wasn’t, the world wouldn’t look like this, with one's place of birth being the primary determining factor in what religion one subscribes to:
Furthermore, very few “Christians” even know what all is in the Bible. They remember a few of the nicer passages about “love thy neighbor as thyself,” “turn the other cheek,” and even “love thine enemy,” and then they try to be good, charitable people. Brace yourself, because here comes the part that the statist fear-mongers don’t understand, or don’t want you to understand:
Most people, regardless of what word they use to describe their faith (or lack thereof) try to be nice, try to be good and loving, and for the most part practice “live and let live.” Of course, this is not true of everyone. It is easy to find people of every faith who are nasty and violent. And while the percentages may differ (for example, I haven’t come across many militant Buddhists), the fact is that most people follow their own consciences more closely than they follow whatever church, religion, or “holy” book they claim to believe in. And the world is a lot better off because of that. If, for example, most Christians followed the literal instructions found in chapters 12 and 13 of Deuteronomy (excerpts shown above), we would be seeing hell on Earth.
Of the Muslims I have met personally, most behave in a kind and considerate manner, just like most Christians, and most Jews, and most atheists, and so on. As a result, I don’t really care what labels people use to describe their religious beliefs. If they believe in and abide by some variation of “do unto others as you would have done unto you”—as most of them usually do in their daily lives—then anything else they profess to believe in is, to me, secondary and unimportant.
Even if there are passages in the Koran that condone intolerance and violence (as passages in the Bible do), being afraid of anyone who calls himself a “Muslim” is still just as ridiculous as being afraid of anyone who calls himself a “Christian.” Unfortunately, fear really is the mind killer, and those opportunistic political parasites in the U.S. who have been using scare-tactics to demonize all Muslims have done such a good job that there are many millions of scared Americans crying to Big Daddy Government to save them from scary brown foreigners, while failing to notice many self-evident truths. For example, if the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world all actually wanted to murder all Christians, you would already be dead. They don’t. And claiming otherwise is just laughably stupid, given the numbers involved. As another example, the over three million Muslims currently living in the U.S. must be amazingly incompetent and/or lazy, if their goal is really to slaughter all “infidels,” since bathtubs kill more Americans annually than radical Muslims do. (Maybe they should take some pointers from bathtubs.)
Some will of course respond with stories of self-described “Muslims” doing violent, nasty things. And the individuals who do such things should be condemned, and their acts of aggression should be combatted with whatever level of force it takes to stop them, up to and including deadly force. But to point to such stories and say, “See what Muslims are like?” is no more reasonable than pointing to such stories and saying, “See what men are like?”, or, “See what vertebrates are like?”
In conclusion, what most self-described “Muslims” believe is the same as what most members of other religions believe, and what most atheists believe: try to be good, and nice, and live a peaceful, productive life. And while most religions have teachings that are downright nasty and violent, most of the people who say they subscribe to such religions either ignore, or don’t even know about, such passages. So no, someone choosing to describe himself using a certain religious label does not by itself mean you have to be scared of him, or condone state violence against him.
There is one big exception: all statists advocate the initiation of violence against their fellow man. Every single one. So if you really want a religion to be scared of, be scared of the cult of “government.” The average person walking into a mosque, or a temple, or a synagogue, or a church, is a trivial threat to humanity compared to the average person who walks into a voting booth.
Great points. I suspect in Islamic countries you may see a mirror image of these things - the hilarious thing is how similar we all are even when it comes down to prejudice and stereotyping.
A lot of this is a function of our tribalistic nature.
We project our fears onto whatever seems alien to us.
Politicians and those in power take advantage of this, as do the media.
Good points about the state too.
I am not an anarchist - I believe the state is a necessary evil but we often lose sight of the great violence and warfare perpetrated in our names by these massive organisations.
Droning civilians and carrying out extra judicial killings does not benefit anyone except those who are in the arms trade.
You have hit on some very good points.
People are very much the same all over the world. I've travelled to approx 70 countries and I've spent 3 months+ in approx 25 of them and years in some of them. People are essentially good and they just want to be left alone and allowed to get on with living their lives, caring and building a better future for their families and enjoying life.
The globalists don't want that scenario so they use a divide and conquer strategy with the aim of keeping us distracted, deceived and in constant fear of each other (and many other things) while they move us towards a one-world government that they want to control.
I had a girlfriend from Kuwait - a Muslim, for three years and she substantiated your claim that people are very much the same all over the world. She was a phd candidate and like a lot of us, went to school to get educated and improve herself and the world. She also believed in treating people as you would want to be treated - the golden rule. I have been an atheist for many years and she did not talk much on religion except a few times like I should believe in some god. I had no fear all those times lying in bed with her as she used her cell phone sometimes to call her mom on the other side of the world and talk in her foreign language!
Thanks. I'm not sure if they need a one world government - there are a handful of corporations that control pretty much everything already.
I do agree on some of the points on the posts, however, the Bible verse taken out of text is disturbing.
I want to add a few points. First, Islam is a very political religion. Muslims want to replace the laws of the constitution with the laws of allah. Their goal is to undermine and eventually replace governments. They do not agree with other humans giving them orders, only allah can guide them.
The Quran also says: "The Creator has taught us in the Qur'an and Sunnah that all other `religions' and ways of life are unacceptable to Him if a person is aware of Islam". This is why many muslims are not tolerant towards other religions and cultures. They are not mixing with other communities, they are creating their own little echo chambers.
Lastly religion in the west is considered by most to be a private matter whereas Islam is more public, muslims are very outspoken about their religious beliefs.
The reason religions are so effective at dividing people is that they are preaching very different things.
A lot of Muslims are peace-loving,not divisive.I guess it depends on where you experienced those things you mentioned.
Just to clarify I never said muslims were not peaceful or loving individuals. I just said that real muslims don't mix with people from other religions, you can verify this fact in every major city in the world they create their own little districts. If you know any muslims community that live with and share the lifestyle of other communities I'm interested to hear about it.
I have worked in Saudi arabia and now in London so yes I have interact with some Muslims socially and not just work.it might surprise you then if i'll say some Muslims are very western in their social lives compared to some non-Muslim groups and nationalities?they have their own rules or protocols to adhere to but not religiously.
There is a big difference between someone who believes in the religion and someone who practice it. Muslims who practice Islam follow the Quran word for word and the Quran says that "all other `religions' and ways of life are unacceptable if a person is aware of Islam"
If believing and practicing as well as interacting with non-Muslims is the issue then yes, there are Muslims who are like this..in my experience. If you say that through this interaction,they dont practice their religion, some still do. It's the real world, its not just theirs, even in Saudi. Fanaticism tend to just do those, believing and practicing.
This post is a great topic for discussion. However, I cannot agree when a Bible verse is taken out of context because it gives it a completely different meaning from what it really is. The Book of Deuteronomy is really about Moses giving his final speech/lesson to the new generation of Israel that had just come out of slavery and wondered in the desert for 40 years and are about to enter the promised land.
The speech is broken up into three large sections: Ch. 1-11 highlights Israel’s rebellion and resistance while they were in the desert. This is also when Moses reminds them of the Ten Commandments and saids, “Listen Oh Israel, The Lord is our God, the Lord Alone. ‘Love the Lord Your God with all your heart, soul, and strength.” Why would Moses find it necessary to give this reminder? For 40 years in the desert, not everyone was faithful to God, some became idol worshippers, and now they are about enter a land where people are worshipping many different gods. So it became imperative for Moses to “remind, remind and remind” their loyalty to the One God.
The second section: Ch. 12- 26 is really an explanation/clarification of all the previous laws given by God. Here Moses expands on the meaning that is relevant to the new generation of Israel. Such as how Israel is to worship God, laws about leadership structure, laws about social justice, etc. After all this, Moses warns them about the consequences about their obedience and disobedience which will result in blessings or curse. Abundant blessings if they are obedient and faithful to Gods laws, or famine, plagues and forced off their land if they are disobedient. We have to remember the warnings were very harsh because the curse will only be far worse if Israel were to disobey God and worship lesser gods.
Here’s one video of Dr. Michael Heiser (Biblical Scholar PhD in Hebrew Bible and Semitic languages) explaining about worship of lesser gods in the Bible.
The third section: Ch. 27-34 is a final section of Moses’ speech. Here, he is explaining to Israel that they have a choice of “life” or “death,” - blessing or curse, so to choose life. This section is also a reminder of the Original Sin in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve was also blessed by God, just like Israel, and given a choice to trust and obey God. However, we all know how that turned out.
Facile article. The "gotcha" only works on Christians. I oppose all Abrahamic religions, so none of that is a problem for me. Moreover, is there really no difference whatsoever between the social views of Muslims and western Christians?
(Right click and open in a new tab to expand)
Based on this data, it would seem to me that the average Muslim is not the equivalent of the western moderate Christian, but instead holds views that we would identify as extreme far-right if held by Christians. This represents a danger to the rights of gays, women and apostates in countries where Muslims become sufficiently numerous to gain political influence.
You claim no Christian or Muslim actually lives according to the dictates of their religions, but when it comes to homosexuality they certainly do. To come out as gay in a Muslim country is a death sentence. To come out as gay in Mormon controlled Utah is a death sentence, as evidenced by the teen suicide crisis happening there. There's still much of the US in which coming out as gay, even in predominantly mainline Christian communities, means being disowned and kicked onto the streets.
You came at this from the starting point of wanting to throw these verses in a Christian's face, and make Muslims out to be identical. You're not helping. There are gay youth dying in the Middle East and languishing in "reparative therapy" camps inside and outside the US because of you, and people like you.
Wow, there are some good conversations going on! Thank you @larkenrose for your well framed considerations. I have experienced the warmth of Muslims and Jews and Catholics and so forth. If one overlays the preachings of the world's religions there is a paltry difference which is pure semantics.
The Golden Rule, as has been cited, "Do as you would be done by." It should suffice; maybe add on "judge not lest ye be judged."
Unfortunately, as @cryptofiend , pointed out, Human nature is a powerful force honed over centuries. It has a very strong self-preservation aspect to it. The unknown induces fear. Fear induces auto-response triggers - we sometimes are unaware of what we are doing or saying. Sounds ridiculous! It is not about what you say or do, though we all justify! I only did ... or I only said ... It is about how those words and actions are received. Culture, conditioning and trust have to be acknowledged on a 2-way basis.
Trust is the basis of Society.
Islam is a religion of interpretation rather than directive, whereas Christianity and Judaism tend to be more linear. Conversely, Islam has very clear directives as to what to do if a person steals, commits adultery. It is a bit like Roman Law versus English Law. We see Islam as being mysogenous - they see our point of view as a serious punishable offence.
This gulf is exacerbated by there being no papacy in Islam and the voices who try to be heard are too frail.
The biggest word in Islam is Peace; in Christianity it is Love; ironic is it not!
Living within a community with a large proportion of Arabic speakers from Syria, Lebanon, Morocco, Egypt and Jordan there are a few issues which are physical. Arabs speak from their throats, near the epiglotis. This makes a large percentage of them sound gruff to a western ear. Sometimes it is actually painful to listen for too long and the words fall on fallow ground!
Neither community appreciates having their culture, religion, traditions criticised. This all adds up to a gulf of communication understanding and genuine respect. We are apart and no matter how hard you try, you are not going to get a relationship with a whole community without a pre-emptive and genuinely selfless gesture. Expect to build the bridge right the way across.
If you do not have the capacity or opportunity to build a big bridge, build a small one. Your reward will astound you because these people are more afraid and more concerned at our threat than we are of theirs.
The core meaning of the word Alla (or Allah), is the same as the core meaning of the word God.
Funny that!
Sorry I have rambled on - this is a theme which I care about strongly.
So far the most horrific dids in human history, the greatest genocides, the most cruel enslavements, the harshest tyrannies were not really realted to religions. So I don't know if religion is the thing we must worry about most.
I think human nature is the real problem. We all have the capacity for great good but also unfortunately great evil too.
This I have to agree. More often, a sane person couln't even believe himself/herself of the wrong act just committed unthinkingly.
Please enlighten us to the harshest tyrannies not being related to religions.
A Dose of Common Knowledge, spreading the ever common sense.
Religions known to many as "governments" deeply entwined in actual religion, which has never really escaped the influence of religion.
The people who trail off your comment with "Human nature is the problem because we have the capacity to do evil (huh.. do you even realize what sentiment you are spreading and the insanity of your thinking?!) " and the other user says: "Yeah, you're right, human nature is the problem, people cannot even believe what behaviors human nature can excuse". Epic fail? Or just a dose of reality? all 3 of you share the same sentiments that plagued every ruler EVER: they are the problem, they cannot help themselves, I am the solution.
No Religion Here, Ever
Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zadong, Pol Pott
Just saying.
Christian
Nothing to do with Religion
Worst what?
So fascism and bolshevism are "godless religions"? What the hell does that even mean? And were does it put the balme? Doesn't it mean that religious extremesim is just like any extrismism? And if so then what's your point?
Where did you form that from? I read this:
Keep saying that, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pott weren't religious and their atrocities have nothing to do with religion. The blame? All extremism is the same? How are all extremes the same as religious extremism? Aren't you the one who's writing these "how to jurnalism" so to that I say fuck off, you want to know what my point is you hack job? What the fuck was your point with religion is not the problem? Didn't bother to read the article to realize it has nothing to do with "religion is the problem"?
You clearly didn't take the the time to understand my first reply to your comment. That you are clearly in the lost as to what the article was about when you remark that religion isn't to blame, as if there is one mention or a hint that religion itself was to blame, or that the article painted religion in a shady way, as is obvious to everyone else I assume. In that comment I said, tying your redundant remark back into the discussion at hand:
So back to my original reply indeed. Did I say that human nature is the problem?
You didn't.
When you say "A is the cause of B", that implies that if we want to stop B, we have to stop A.
I say, "C is a much more significant cause of B", to which you reply, "no, it's C+A that causes B".
I say, "C+A is a subset of C and all C causes B. Also, C+A is just a subset of A. Ergo we should eliminate all of C, not all A"
Is that clear?
NO. Define the fucking terms if you're going to speak in mumbo jumbo.
Larken says "religion isn't the problem, the cult of government is" to which you said:
So it doesn't mean anything if you excused religious atrocities by claiming religion had nothing to do with past atrocities when it clearly and most certainly did, just as it doesn't mean anything when you made your very first comment saying that nonsense and alluding that the article made a case about religion being bad, but now you can allude that you're not guilty of blaming human nature. LMAO.
Har Har, next you're going to say that you were blaming the cult of government, because if you weren't excusing the previous atrocities of religion by saying religion had nothing to do with it, you were indeed agreeing that religion isn't what you should be worried about.. HAR HAR
Its so great to find like minded people here on Steemit. You got me with the last paragraph of statism.
All religions have been created to divide and rule over the centuries.
And yet many religious people use religion as a way to try to be better people.
Exactly my opinion. To emphasize bad verses of the bible doesn't make the coran better.
Wars happen mostly about oil and religion. Religions can be abused - the best example is IS.
All priests please get away from me. Every religion is potential dangerous to all others who don't believe.
Therefore no upvote for this post of @larkenrose.
I'm not sure why you think any of that disagreed with what I said.
Perhaps because you made this not clear enough. The main statement should be at the beginning. If I misunderstood you, pardon me. I'm not a native english speaker.
I fear the raising of the Islam in Europe. OK, peace, you got my upvote.
Hey @larkenrose, Thanks for a beautifully clear exposition of who the true culprits are. By the way, Jesus gave us a pretty good guide to interpreting and applying Deuteronomy:
Though a Christian, I can peacefully and happily co-exist with anyone who is on board with Jesus' elucidation of the second great commandment. I can even be very happy around those who would subset that commandment to a minimum of "Leave your neighbor alone." ;)
I often credit you publicly with my final conversion to anarchy. If we all could only clearly see that belief in human government deludes us into violating our most cherished and important "religious" beliefs, the world would be a far better place. Thank you for your grand contributions in that direction.😄😇😄
I have been living in the Middle East for 15+ years and must say that so far the only radicalized Muslims I have met are the ones living (or being directed to is the better expression) in my own home country Germany. It seems that the hidden hand who orchestrates the refugee movement only wants to bring radical and fundamentalist Muslim people (many of them aren't even religious at all) to destroy the West.
No Muslim person in the Middle East has ever bullied me, tried to convince me to adopt Islam or coerced me in any way to accept Islam as the only true religion. As a woman I feel safter in the Middle East than in my own home country Germany. So what we see is a totally upside down version of Islam.