Men Deal With It Too
User @cogliostro called on me to help answer some questions he has regarding sexism.
Clearly, this person hasn’t read any of my articles. Yesterday I posted interviews from men AND women discussing gender roles and social constructs, and how it has affected them personally.
I digress. I will be addressing this user’s request regardless, because I think it is important.
Where do I begin?
It’s a bold statement to argue sexism isn’t harmful to men, or women.
If that’s the case, then just who is it harmful to? That argument doesn’t make any sense.
I’m going to assume he meant sexist assumptions aren’t harmful. I still disagree. Gender discrimination is still discrimination, regardless of how it takes form.
Debunking The Myth
The image in question.
This picture is sexist for a variety of reasons.
In case you forgot, here’s a refresher on what that word means.
Sex·ism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
By definition, the picture covers all bases.
A lot of people argue that because sometimes these assumptions are beneficial to people, that implies that it’s not actually an example of sexism. That is not true. In fact, most women feel that chivalry is a sexist ideal in itself.
Does that mean it’s always sexist? No!
We have to distinguish the differences. If the man in the illustration is paying for the meal out of kindness, it’s not sexist. However, if he is paying for the meal because he feels he is required to, then yes, it is sexist.
Sexism Hurts Everyone
Okay, so we have covered some disparities on sexist assumptions. Now I want to talk about how this type of assumption is harmful to men as well as women.
Since @cogliostro didn’t want me to quote a feminist, I’ll take this opportunity to share some submissions I have received from men on gender roles, and how it has affected them.
Dominic:
”I think teaching boys that they have to be the breadwinners and should have what they want is just as bad as shaming the webcam girl who likes to feel desired and sexy.”
Tony:
”Some of the most egregious examples of toxic behaviors are anti-intellectualism, male pride and spendthrift. By themselves, looked at objectively, it's something that needs to be corrected. But the big problem is that all of these behaviors are socially acceptable, and often encouraged.”
Matt:
”You feel pressured to act in a certain way that may not be natural but you are in some ways forced to adapt to society's gender roles.”
These are just some of many examples I have received.
Men Deal With It, Too
The illustration shows some ways sexism affects males too. We assume that men should make the money and pay for meals, which isn’t just bad for the women that it excludes, but it’s also hurtful to the men that don’t fit into that role.
There are endless reasons sexist culture is hurtful to men. Mainly, though, it’s gender bias. Men are often portrayed to be macho, have no emotions, be aggressive, etc.
In conclusion, I think it’s obvious that sexism, as well as gender roles and social constructs, are harmful to everyone involved. We assume men and women should be one way, or another.
You know what they say about assumptions.
Thanks, @cogliostro, for asking me to go into more detail on the subject. I hope this helps.
"In fact, most women feel that chivalry is a sexist ideal in itself."
Thank you for making light. I audibly laughed. Hahaha.
As did I.
Its just a matter of respect.
Care to go into more detail on that?
We Filipinos had been thought by our ancestors to take good care of woman, not because they are weak its not true because they are the one take good care of our children. Imagine a housewife left at home together with your kids, she make sure that her offspring are taken care of. She turns herself into a doctor when her kid is sick, she turns into a teacher when her kids has assignment in school, she turns herself into a lawyer when her kids is bullied, she turns herself into a nutritionist to make sure her kids is in good health, she turns herself into a fashion designer to groom her kids. These things are very hard for a man to do. That's why we give too much value and respect to a woman, give them attention. This is to show and make them feel that we there to support and also to take good care of them. This doesn't mean sexism, it means that man needs also to do our part.
Beautiful words
Ah, I see. Like I said earlier, there are definitely differences, it just depends on the situation!
Thanks for clarifying that. It is a matter of respect.
How can you make that shit up?
What are you even talking about?
The thing is that quotes don't prove shit, vera, don't you uderstand? you can't use a quote to support an argument, no matter who they come from.
Try to use your brain and see why
With that logic, every research article ever is wrong. It's called citing your sources. Wikipedia does that all the time.
I can find a quote to support any opposing arguments. Research articles (if they are serious) quote other research backed by science
Quotes are not facts. You can cite scientific souce, or you can say "Whomever says something" and you quote the source proving that whomever said something, not that something is true.
In case you cite a source that has an argument, you are using the argument of your source.
Please tell me how you back this one, for example. I mean, you post it as it is true just because that person said it. That doesn't make it true
Also, Wipiedia at least on the surface provides definitions.
You promote views.
It is different (plus you change the definitions of Wikipedia to suit your view).
Please keep it relevant to the article. You are merging separate arguments now.
I backed that quote when I originally used it in a previous blog post. If you're confused, go back and read it, because I tire of repeating myself to someone who isn't listening.
No, you didn't back it. Stop lying.
All you said was there is no sexism agains men and no racism against white people, which does not back up the quote, and you didn't back that claim either
And you tell me to tell you which of my questions remain unanswered, pretending to be polite, and when I bring them up again you say "Please keep it relevant to the article. " and downvote me for no reason? WTF?
I listen, you have not answered
I'll downvote you back then
@somedude I'll make a separate article covering all of that then.
Feign ignorance all you want.
You copy/pasted the quote without reading the rest of the comment.
I very clearly offered more than just a quote in my original response to you.
These are questions that I have already answered.
You keep on answering with things that don't hold themselves, one after the other, you make up a chain of comments with no bases.
Reverse sexism doesn't exist (I asked you to please show me a dictionary where all definitions exclude men, you cound't because you made that up)
Heterosexist dynamics does not affect women in the same way it affects men (made up, sexist comment)
the majority of spaces are male spaces (made up, look at steem, there are women only posts and NONE men only posts)
Because the deck is stacked against women (false)
And you may need female only spaces, that's fine (I don't) but then don't go on complaining when men need men only spaces then
Your quotes states:
men’s inclusion into women’s political and structural spaces is fundamentally heterosexist;
I asked why is this more heterosexist that female only spaces.
To which you answered that heterosexist dynamics does not affect women in the same way it affects men
That doesn't answer why male spaces are more heterosexist than women's, it just shifts the question to something else, which you also don't provide any evidence to, and which is also a non-equalitarian and sexist statement.
The other thing the quote states is that men’s inclusion into women’s political and structural spaces also serves an old nationalistic claim that women need to take care of men
I asked you why, you din't answer
babbling is not answering questions
Making a separate article does not make your statements true not does it make you any less non-equalitarian
Who is you? why does he say you? If he feels that way, he should say so. Who the hell is you?
Is often used to refer to the generalized other, but of course you know that so I don't see why you (specific 2nd person you, @somedude) would ask something so asanine.
Because when something happens to me, I use I
Using you instead of I implies not taking responsability for his feelings, as if it was a generic person.
And why does he get to use the "it's not natural" argument and when he does it it's fine? Since you are so clever @desmoind you can probably explain that to me
I agree, sexism hurts everyone. But I don't really care how men or women "should" behave. Probably somebody made that up anyways.
I know this is going to sound silly, but what do they say about assumptions?
It makes an ass out of u and me. Haha!
Hahaha! How didn't I know this?! Thanks @veralynn!
lmao, you are more than welcome! Thanks for looking :)
No that's assume. Assumption is that you'll be an ass, and the ump will shun you. ;)
lol, ssshhhhh, you get the point!
Can't you see that is exactly what Vera is doing?
Telling us all how we should behave "not to hurt anyone" according to her
I think it's super ironic you agreed with the above comment on respect, yet you have zero respect for anyone that doesn't share your opinion.
She's making me laugh, that's what she's doing. I was already agreeing with what she says here before I even learned to type, that sexism hurts everyone and that I never was for any type of divisions.
I loved the post and I stand by that. She didn't make me do anything.
I have no respect for someone who wants to impose their opinion on the rest of us.
Even less, when they have no background to show where their opinion comes from, except quotes they made out to be facts in their own mind, because that gives them social validation.
In fact, I have no respect for anyone whose opinions come from being more convenient to them in the social context they live in.
You make me laugh
@somedude how so?
Potatoes gonna potate.
It's odd how we men still dominate some businesses and get paid more, but in the western world the woman tends to have all the power of the children and can decide without consulting the other if the baby should even be born.
But the strangest thing is when you look around the world and you see which parent has the power, the child of the opposite sex can be subject to genital mutilation and it is not even an issue unless they leave that culture. I wonder if it is due to some sort of repressed anger toward the opposite sex.
That's definitely true! There's a lot of disparity in the U.S. that often doesn't get talked about.
The sad thing about circumcision is that a lot of times, parents don't even have a choice. I have read a shocking amount of stories where doctors did it anyways because it's assumed. It's pretty disgusting. After being educated about it, a lot of mothers have regret for having it done to their child.
I don't think it's repressed anger, though. People do it because of tradition, for the most part. More people are getting educated about it, though, so I think that's a step towards progress.
Wow!!! Just WoW! I'm an atheist and I've debated religious people here. I've been an Anarcho-Capitalist and debated against Anarcho-Communists here. These are usually things that get really heated outside of steemit.
That hasn't really happened to me though...
They have been very civil discussions. I'm sorry to see that hasn't been the case with you.
As to my view on sexism, racism, (insert)isms. I believe in equality. You either want to be treated equal or you want to be treated special. Those are mutually exclusive things. You cannot have both.
My wife and I treat each other 100% as equals. In fact, gender never really comes up in our house. It's kind of strange now that I think about it.
Good luck, and I'm sorry you're having such an uncivil experience.
EDIT: My wife pays the bills and generally cooks when she wants to. Or tells me it is fend for myself. She doesn't have a job. I make the money she uses to pay the bills. We have reversed those rolls before in the past, so it is semi-traditional in my house at the moment but not out of any planned thing. In the past she had to work more out of the house and I cooked most of the meals, but that has been a long time ago and our kids were all really young. They are all adults now.
EDIT 2: She doesn't have a job in the traditional sense. It's teamwork because she handles the bills and occasionally makes meals and such while I work multiple jobs and bring in the money I don't view her as not having a job. She is doing her part as part of our team/family. She also takes care of both her frail elderly parents that moved in with us... her decision. That is a huge job.
If you look into some of my past posts, this isn't something new to me! Unfortunately, I have a lot of controversy, just for the fact that I identify as a feminist. It's pretty hurtful, considering half of the people that dislike me haven't even read my content. They just assume I'm radical.
I'm happy to hear that you and your wife don't subscribe to the "norm." I never did either, and in my experience, I have usually made more money than the men in my life! These stigmas are just wrong, and hurt a lot of people.
No, it's not for the fact that you identify as a feminist.
What's your beef with me then?
You said in a recent post that we should move from our archaic minds, and that you don't think about food, sex, or sleep. I don't know about sex, there can be many reasons, but the only way I can come up with why you wouldn't think about food or sleep is because you have those needs covered. And you know what that makes you? Privileged
You are a fascist
You imply I am opressed, and I am not opressed. The poor are opressed, women in eastern countries are opressed, animals are opressed.
We are not opressed, you are fascist, the degree of anything is never zero
Yeah I don't subscribe to an idea of what is "normal". :)
Do your thing, I'll do mine.
If I hurt someone that is another thing.
If I force someone (even by coercion) that is wrong.
I've seen the flip side where the woman was anti-male... but I support gender equality. If I see people treating each other wrong in either direction I think it is wrong.
Equality is what I believe in. Not special treatment.
I think most issues would go away if other people thought that way. I think a lot of problems for all the (insert)isms are because we have too much "Special treatment" programs for different things. If we want equality we need to treat each other equal. It does take some effort to get people there but special treatment tends to lead to resentment and division.
If you make more than the men, and do a better job then more power to you. :) I also view that largely as between you and your employer and none of my business. :)
Hang in there.
I disagree with special treatment, as well.
It's a shame that some people don't look into the work I am actually doing. Too many assume and make judgement before looking into it. Oh well.
Thanks for the response/support! I appreciate it. :)
Believe me, Vera wants to be treated special, that is all her comments are about.
She has enough privilege, but she wants more, she wants it all