Turning tides: One-sided public discourse on bidbots
I am not very politically active as for the most part, I don't see the changes it makes as the average person in the real world is happily living lead by an authority in an environment engineered to oppress them. The things they find important are the things they have been told to find important, the things that they fight for are what their attention has been told to look at. It is a big reason many people found a place at Steemit, a place where there was some chance to break free of the centralised control and take a little control back. So, I have been campaigning. It is strange.
From the first few weeks of bidbots some 9 months or more ago, I have been questioning the system, the processes and the people who run them with very, very little feedback. It was like banging my head against a wall because at that point, it was a minor thing, small amounts. There was no way one or two SBD's sent to @randowhale were going to boost a post into trending so for the most part, people didn't care. They saw quick, easy gains so the future didn't matter. But, it was inevitable that it would escalate because, that is what it must do when competition arrives.
It didn't take long before the previous circlejerk Trending authors were complaining about their profits as the autovoters they enjoyed began delegating to the bidbots instead. Their friends had abandoned them for more ROI. Seems they didn't actually like their content enough after all. Why only make curation returns when one could get 90% returned of a self-vote without ever having to write a post or read an article? They didn't even need to click a button, set and forget and watch the wallet grow. The circlejerk Trenders were now replaced by nonsense content often, even more nonsense than their own had been.
It was then that people started to pay a little attention to what was going on, it was then that the first forays into checking the numbers were made and the initial figures pointed to a narrow band of users benefiting but were not conclusive. The evidence has been mounting though hasn't it? Time and time again the blockchain has been queried and it is pulling more and more data showing just how much profit the bidbots are making and just how much they are drawing from the pool, the pool everyone is meant to be drinking from.
Now, my campaigning hasn't been with placards, I haven't been marching on the streets screaming for my rights as a user or how unfair it is. All I have done is ask question after question after question. In my experience and from my understanding, it is the questions asked that change the world and that should be no different in the Steem ecosystem.
But, questions are not enough, answers are needed but even now, nine months later, very few are forthcoming. The owners/ delegators/ operators of the bidbots are still largely silent, still unwilling to engage with the community. People need to ask more questions perhaps.
Like @abh12345 (someone who can query the blockchain and has found some numbers for me) asked: What happens if everyone delegates to bidbots? Have a read of the replies.
But, still adequate answers aren't forthcoming. Ask yourself, these bidbot operators are blockchain experts yet, they are unable to show with definitive evidence that what they are doing is good for the Steem ecosystem. They are unable to provide the numbers or statistics and like Trump and his tax returns, they are very, very unwilling to open their books and show just what kinds of profits they are making or show the calculations on how much pull on the pool they actually have.
You have to ask, Why? Why would they be so unwilling or unable to provide such evidence? I have been known to be wrong before, to not see the whole picture. If they show me the numbers of how bidbots fundamentally help the community more than they harm it in the long term view of Steem, I might even delegate to and use them myself. These numbers are non-existent, all numbers point to more harm than good.
So far, silence. Silence from the owners, the operators and the delegators.
Not only are they blind to the content they are voting on, they are blind to the community of which they are a part, blind to the damage they cause and blind to the data that proves their position poor. Or are they?
Now, you are going to see the gymnastics, they are going to hijack the conversation away from the real issue just like any good government would, and change the narrative. They are going to focus on the visible Trending authors, call it compromise and find ways to hide their activities, lessen the prominence in the ecosystem so that they can fly under the radar and continue to do what they are doing. They will do this because the people think Trending is important because it seems so. It is not. But, have a read the owner of @dtube, @heimindanger's quick combat solution for trending and the arguments made in the comments section.
Adjusting Trending is not a compromise, it is a counter-campaign, a manipulation to prolong their game to continue to keep extracting from the community. They are not benevolent members of the community, they are self-maximisers and they are acting like any authority would to maintain power.
- Do not let them hijack your potential.
- Do not let them manipulate you.
- Do not let them condition you to stop asking the right questions.
- Do not put yourself back at the mercy of an authority
Right now we have a chance to keep pushing for reform and it might be reform. It is unlikely that all bidbots will be taken out of the market as currently, the profits are just too high but, perhaps there is a better equilibrium, a place where bidbots can exist without causing massive harm to the rest of the community and perhaps, even help the community. I am not sure what that will look like but, it is going to take a hell of a lot more questions, trials and failures to get it right.
Keep asking questions and keep forcing the owners, operators and delegators to answer them publicly.
Taraz
[ a Steemit original ]
I can't help but feel like your pissing in the wind Taraz. At the moment the only reason I have for logging on to steemit is to check out your posts. I dont really feel like I want to be a part of it right now. I really dont see any improvements coming any time soon either. It looks to me like its being deliberately allowed to be run into the ground and abused. Maybe eos will have a much fairer site when its launched and many from steemit will migrate over there but what will the price of fairness and equality of opportunity be I wonder. Its a real fucking shame, especially for the likes of yourself who have given so much to steemit.
I don't know much about EOS but, the same people who I would consider poor actors here have been buying in heavily there too. Perhaps changes will come or someone will try something a little different but for now, I will piss into the wind and take the spray.
I have personally worked very hard to get to this point and i have staked my name to my position. There are going to be costs to me that will affect my family too, I know that but, I can't sit back and play the game quietly as that condones the behaviour.
"Stand for something or fall for anything."
Aren't people tired of being on their knees?
It would appear not. I've been hoping that something would happen to set us back on the right track but tbh, I just can't see where its going to come from. Certainly not from those at the top of the pile and the rest of us combined can't really affect any change. All we can do is point out the failings and ask those with the power to do so to make the changes needed but nobody is listening. No-one really cares for the most part as long as the system is working for them. Maybe its time to accept that there is no going back or moving forward. Maybe ateemit simply is what it is because it was always meant to be this way. I wish I had your optimism.
Very well presented, as always.
As usual, we shall wait for a well formed argument with data that show bid-bots doing more good than not... but we know not to hold our breath.
Revise your witness votes and wait patiently for change, for it seems only steemit inc and the major stakeholders (who are mainly bid-bot owners/delegators) can make the changes we seek to stop the pool being downed by only a few.
I think you got the last part of that sentence backwards, but nevertheless I would be happy to put together such a well-formed argument! Please give me some time and I will write it up and make a post about it.
I don’t expect you or many others on the platform to agree with me, because it seems your minds are made up, but I want to at least dispel this ridiculous notion that bot owners are not eager and willing to engage with the community and discuss the topic.
heh.
You are quite right, I will edit that, thank you.
I have added you to ginabot because I am interested to hear what you have to say, thanks for the message.
It's true that a couple of owners have engaged, @themarkymark, @therealwolf, @aggroed to name a few, but the focus of the responses have mainly revolved around Trending.
We all know that Trending is not good, was never that good, and will probably never been of great quality, ever.
Communities and filters will arrive and bot voted posts may well be hidden (if managers can keep up with the new arrivals) and this is will be a good thing for the visibility of 'community agreed quality content' in these communities who choose collectively on what is the best content at that point in time.
However, the situation I and others can see already, is the delegators/owners of bid-bots not caring too much about who sees the posts, just as long as the cash keeps rolling in.
There may be a drop in users of bid-bots - those wanting in on communities who exclude them, and this will improve ROI for someone else who doesn't care less about visibility. They make money, the Bot owner takes the curation, the delegator gets paid.
This is surely not how this place was supposed to be?
If you could include in your post some words around this, that would be great.
Thank you.
@tarazkp - have a ginabot ping on me just in case you've moved on from here already :)
@yabapmatt I use a lot of the mini-bots (not many of the big ones because the bids are outside of my paygrade.) I would be very interested in reading your side of the discussion. I would also be interested in reading other's responses to your side. Because I've heard a lot of strong arguments for and against automation. I'm still on the fence. I use it. I don't overuse it. But I'm interested in the conversation. I'm going to check your page for a post. Not sure if you posted yet.
do you have that list of witnesses handy?
Aside from a few who are mathematically impaired most people in trending are aware that they are not making money, quite the opposite, but they are getting the attention they wanted so there lies the food for their egos.
I know politics is a word tinged with all shades of corruption but it seems to be a field no thinker should avoid for to long. I think this little battle you've engaged in has its merit and as you have rightfully pointed out its these types of conversations that are beginning to shift the tide.
Let's see what the future holds for us...
Politics has become a dirty word even though all engage in it, even if passively.
At least, it keeps life here interesting ;)
Like the popular saying goes " constant drips of water makes an ocean". Neglect the drops of water and Soon your home will be flooded. This is exactly what happnes with the bid bots. People were silent because they didn't see any harm in it at that time. It was jolly jolly all the way until the big fishes started using it.
I even want to believe that the creators of these bid bots didn't envisage it to go this way but of course have remained silent when they consider the amount of profit they are making off their creation.
But have they been entirely silent? Nope . As we can see from the post made by @abh12345. He was actually replied bybone owner in the most ridiculous way, shooting himself on the floor with his reply. It's obvious they know they are doing the wrong thing at the moment but greed wouldn't let them do anything about it. Who can we complian to, how can we fight this? After all its a decentralized platform
Everything that has an advantage also has a disadvantage .
Happy Sunday @tarazkp.
The advantage doesn't have to be equal but the extreme one sided nature of this is creating a system that will collapse.
Well you are right ...but can't @ned or even @dan do anything? I have noticed that they have been silent on a whole lot of stuffs going on on this platform . Not cool to me though. I know this is a decentralized system where everyone seemingly has the right to do as he pleases but as the creators of this platform, I believe they have some reserved Powers.
no reserved powers. Once he acts, there is an authority problem.
Can't see it changing. The ones who are taking the money are just getting bigger. Majority of the platform is using some form of bot. They don't want to be part of the community. They will put up with you and placate you but really don't want change. If you are making $1000 per week for doing nothing but posting crap that no one reads why change.
Saw one person has been posting the same content every day. All they do is copy and paste coin market cap top 10 daily for $15 payout. Why and how can someone get away with this. Plus you mentioned the other day of the pods who upvote each other guaranteeing a certain payout.
Going to do an experiment to show you what is possible with a bot next week. I am bloody clueless and will have a go. Maybe it will make me understand it more.
Looking forward to it, don't lose too much ;)
I spent so much time trying to understand the bid-bots and questioning whether I should start using them or not. I'm so glad I came to despise them, without ever using them. The one argument that attracted me at the time was that the bids provided a floor for the value of Steem. Folks had been encouraging use Steem or SBD to buy and sell things. An easy first thing to sell was votes -- lots easier than shipping via the mail!
So I enjoyed seeing people playing with the bots, even though I didn't use them. People were experimenting. But clearly, the days of experimentation are long over. It's a mess now. And I think it's the cheapest way that competitors will have to destroy the Steem project. Invest in SP and create havoc to drive away good folks. The couple million USD that would take, is small compared to any competitor's overall market capitalization.
If you consider that some ( if not many) of the bot owners will transfer over to EOS, you could say that it is already happening and they didn't even need to buy in, they earned from Steem and then earn more through the SBD sent to them. People are financing their own demise to earn coins that will be valueless if the bidbots continue ass is.
Agreed! It will be interesting to see if this Steem experiment collapses. At least with a decentralized system and witnesses, there's potential for a better project to emerge under different rules, once the crash drives out the opportunists. It's just a shame that folks have to go through the trauma, especially in countries where Steem could really make a difference.
It seems that the only way society learns is through pain. You'd think that this would have changed slightly here considering the claims people make about their ideals and beliefs yet, claims are just that until there is action to support them.
I don't think you're pissing in the wind.
It's conversations like these that help lead to reform.
As I'm sure you know, im definitely on the fence about the bots, I use them.
They are definitely flawed and abused, but they also provide the opportunity for everyone to promote their content.
I ground it out for quite some time before I had organically earned enough to really start investing in the content I wanted to create for this platform.
I did that without the use of bots...but...
Then I earned my opportunity to launch my show...
I'm using bots now, but I don't believe I'm abusing them.
I understand the value in advertising, it's proven it's capabilities since its existence.
You can have the best product in the world but if nobody knows it exists, what's it's true value.
I take my project very seriously, I treat it as a business and I believe I have the right to advertise that business so as to help raise awareness of it.
By the way, I've started to use the hashtag #advertisedcontent on my show also.
I have however, already stated to any who have asked, that I only intend to use this advertising during these early stages until such point that I don't have to.
Hopefully it doesn't take long. It has been working.
I think personally there are a few ways that some reform can occur quickly.
I think people should check trending regularly, manually downvoting the garbage, driving it down, and upvoting the good content, pushing it up.
I think more bot services can utilize blacklists and encourage better usage through whitelists.
I think more legitimate content creators should utilize these bots as advertising tools.
Even small steps like this can change the face of trending quickly.
I don't believe, as heimendanger has initiated, that blindly flagging is an answer at all.
There's nothing wrong with us wanting better and conversations like this one can help get us there.
We can make things better...together.
Hope you're having a great weekend bud.
(Just realized how long this is, sorry)
I am not one who is allowed to complain about lengthy content ;)
There are definitely things to be tried and tested to see if there are indeed better ways than currently. @heimindanger should provide at lease direct links to the content so people can actually judge it rather than blind downvoting. I also think that at the very least that all bots used, big or small, should be visible tagged by the UI as promoted.
As said, there may be some middle ground but that requires the people 'in charge' to join the conversations.
I think bots could definetly have a place here on Steemint to help new users get some recognition but I see they have exploded and there is no quality control - so they just upvote whoever places a bid which sucks! It means people just buy a place on the trending page and this is the reason the trending page is 'broken' - I close my eyes and look away when the trending page opens up.
For the bots to truly work well on here they would all need to be run by humans so that content can acutally be checked for quality and upvoted accordingly. However this is to much work for most people and far less profitable!
I have used the upvote bots from time to time experimenting with how they work. The longer im on here the less I use them and just focus on meeting an engaging with likeminded Steemians.
I havent delegated (I dont have the SP yet!) but I have seen a few bots out there that actually have manual curation which If I was to delegate I would tend towards these as they are actually trying to help the community
Manual curators should be paid by the bots for every vote cast, especially on large and unwhitelisted. Blacklists should go to all bidbot owners.
Who knows where it will end though.
Gone are the days where everyone was a manual curator! The bots are just making it harder for good content to get noticed..... Minnowbooster tried to make changed recently and they ended up blacklisting people who didnt deserve to be (like me!).. was eventually un blacklisted.. shows there is still a long way to get it right!
I dont think banning them completly is nessasary? Just need some controls on them because much of the content in trending etc is just bought votes
I have heard “ Hit’em where it hurts. The wallet”. By no means do I claim to understand the technology behind Steemit. But I do get that it is decentralized and constructed to flourish. So what if, the code was re-written in such a way as to limit the bots, maybe make it not worth it. I supose a Hard Fork? Boston Tea Party, ala blockchain style. Like I said, I’m clueless. Its fun to think about utopia.
extremely difficult to effectivey do I think plus, censorship and here, freedom rules. Problem is that people's sense of freedom is to be assholes. ;)