Buying Advertising and Promotion discussion

in #steemit7 years ago (edited)

Advertising on Steemit

 
There are people who think that buying bidbot votes are akin to traditional advertising on other sites but, this is not quite true. You see, if an advert is bought say, in the newspaper for 100 dollars, what is bought is the space, formatting, typesetting etc. Sure, that space might get some eyes on it, a phone call or two or perhaps a million dollar sale but, the 100 dollars paid does not see a direct return. What gets the potential return is the potential eyes that say, "I might buy that". There are no guarantees and if the advert is deemed a terrible waste of space or inappropriate, the newspaper might not even approve it.

The other thing that 100 dollars does not do is take any value from any other advertisers in that newspaper. External value is delivered to the newspaper and they provide a space to present the advertisement. Two competitors for that space might win or lose it or, the adverts might compete with each other but, the newspaper does not get involved in that at all. They just provide the space, they have no horse in that race. If there is a backlash against an advert, it is directed at the advertiser.

However, once the Newspaper endorses a particular view and gives it preferential treatment and incentive to advertise, it opens itself up to the responsibility of the advert also. The backlash is directed at the Newspaper for endorsing it as well as the advertiser. That means that if an advert is deemed inappropriate, the newspaper must also take responsibility as it has approved the advertisement. This means that newspapers generally play conservatively with their approvals as they become partly liable to public black flags. That is bad for business and will reduce eyes and therefore advertisers willing to pay. Remember, the advertisers are paying for eyes only.

So, what the newspaper also does is pay for journalists and buys stories from syndicates to attract buyers of the newspaper and therefore, the eyes that are needed to see the advert that they were just paid 100 dollars to display. Paying journalists is very expensive hence the degradation in journalistic integrity but, they still pay for content providers to produce content to attract the eyes to the promoted content they have sold. See how it works? They sell space and pay for content. Some portion of that 100 dollars pays other content producers, not the advertiser directly as to pay the advertiser directly destroys their business model.

However still, regardless of content, there is absolutely no guarantee that the advert will see any return for the advertiser at all. Zero. Also, other than the initial advertising cost, the newspaper gets zero added return from the advert. If the advert gets a million dollar sale, the newspaper gets none of it. What it may get however is a repeat customer who believes the sale was because of the advert in their paper and they hope for another big sale.

So, at least from a few perspectives, Advertising is quite different from what is happening at Steemit. If people want to call it advertising and promotion why not make it more like advertising?

What if:

 

  • The advertiser pays the 100 (whatever) to the bots for the eyes.
  • The bots votes and provide the exact 100 in value and lose the VP
  • The post then appears in the trending pages with a zero payout and the value it got from the bot goes to @null
  • The bidbot keeps the liquid 100 to do with as it pleases.
  • There is more left in the pool to upvote the promoted post because the bot voted precisely
  • There is more left to upvote other content too
  • The community decides the real value of posts and with more in the pool, votes are worth more
  • The bidbot can vote again but it loses the additional VP but, it has no obligation to unless it wants to

Wouldn't this satisfy the advertising/promotion stance?

 

  • The bidbot earns well and only loses the VP it spends and the curation amount just like the newspaper loses the space to sell.
  • The advertisers get the eyes and publicity they desire at the price they are willing to pay, page 1 or 7 or at the back in the classifieds.
  • The pool has more in it for all stake holders to vote and choose meaning they can decide post values again plus more for curation also
  • This would mean no real need for flagging promoted posts just for being promoted as they will be subject to the market model to derive their value, just like every other post.

Isn't this Win/win? This would be an actual business model where buyers of the vote would want to have some assurance that the space bought will get eyes keeping the developers developing and the incentive to get valuable eyes on the platform. Bidbots could also help the providers develop the content for those eyes if they want, maybe for a fee but, just like with real advertising, there are no guarantees on return. This model should empower voters with more value and incentivize content producers to produce content that actually attracts voter eyes and makes people want to buy it.

There would also be no need for well subscribed and established users to use bots to get into trending, quality of promoted content would go up because it is subject to market pressures and, voters will have more to play with for both voting and curation return. On top of this, the SBD from the advertisers would be sent to @null and burned as the promotion tab was designed originally which should help bring back the peg. Wouldn't this be a compromise that satisfies the demands of all users? Unless of course, it isn't about promotion and eyes on for the users at all.

It is after 4am here at the moment so I think there may be some holes and missed points and some potential big tweaks but, if the bidbots are a promotional tool, perhaps they should be run as such. This way more users are having more of their expectations met at a more realistic level and one that is tenable at many levels.

Taraz
[ a Steemit original ]

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I'm not sure I fully understood your idea, but doesn't it come down to have two kinds of votes? Bought for "exposure" and human/organic for "value"? How to distinguish between those? Even if all current bid-bots would agree to this system, it would not even take a day until new (off-chain/help-a-friend/community/...) market evolves, selling/organizing regular votes and we're back where we are now. Did I miss something?

I'm not sure I fully understood your idea, but doesn't it come down to have two kinds of votes? Bought for "exposure" and human/organic for "value"? How to distinguish between those?

Yes, this is what I am wondering about it too but, this is the thing isn't it? It would have to be 'all agree'.

Even if all current bid-bots would agree to this system, it would not even take a day until new (off-chain/help-a-friend/community/...) market evolves, selling/organizing regular votes and we're back where we are now.

People can claim 'for exposure' and 'eyes on' but if this was actually implemented, they would change their behaviours and take them underground. Essentially, it invalidates their defence making for profit the only real reason left.

Did I miss something?

You missed nothing at all. Thank you.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess I will be close to impossible to get all to agree as long as there is possible profit by doing it otherwise.
For "exposure-only" there's already the "promoted" feed, listing posts that burnt SBD via @null. So making users look into the promoted tab instead of hot or trending would already go into the direction you proposed, I guess?

So making users look into the promoted tab instead of hot or trending would already go into the direction you proposed, I guess?

Or, sliding promoted content through the promoted feature into trending for a price would work well as well. If promoted runs a bidding system (which I think it kind of does). Bid your way into the top spot and appear in trending in the first 5 posts. 2nd spot in the top 10 etc. (arbitrary numbers). It could have a feature that for lower amounts you could buy into a tag trending position.

This would take away the need for bidbots to get into trending and burn the SBD in @null

It wouldn't get rid of the bidbots but there would then be a clear separation of the motivations of why to promote the posts. Bidbot users would only have the claim of profit. I have no problem with people making profit but, be honest about it and don't hide behind the various masks claiming for engagement.

The idea has some merit, but as we both know it's not about advertising and gaining eyes on their posts this will never fly. With this plan how can the guitar guy make any money? and honestly his posts aren't that bad compared to others that make trending.

80s jacket guy isn't making any money though is he?

I need to wake up and read taz's post a few more times 😁

It's really hard to know if they are profiting. Common running assumption is 25% goes to curation, but this just isn't the case most of the time. Many of the bots allow voting under 30 minutes so they can really cut down on the amount paid in curation. Know when I was using bots I'd notice last second bids on posts that just were written. These jackasses would wait unit there was 90 seconds left on a large bot that still had some room before going negative. Then submit their post, then pay for their very large bid turning all the bids negative IF you didn't have any large upvotes early. But to those guys it's a cash cow as they just removed curation almost completely from their post and all future bid bots will have most of the curation going to the owner.

Hope that makes sense...it's late.

But put in a couple of the worst offenders account names into steemworld and look at the post payouts. You can see what percentage went to curation.

Just an example of your last post that paid out:
Created 2018-04-03, 04:59 ( 7 days, 20 hours ago )
Author Payout $ 59.966
Curator Payout $ 22.897 ( 27.63 % )
Transfer Amount
Link abh12345/utopian-io-contribution-approved-rejected-analysis-23rd-29th-march-2018

vs the second top trending person right now (first person hasn't posted in 500+ days, yet got a vote from Mr TA's supporter...interesting) most recent payout:

Created 2018-03-11, 07:24 ( 30 days, 18 hours ago )
Author Payout $ 37.790
Curator Payout $ 3.731 ( 8.99 % )
Transfer Amount -
Link alishannoor/some-click-from-wedding-party-of-a-cousin

And that post didn't have nearly as much paid support as his most recent one. But at under 9% in curation he can afford for even a -10% cap and still come out ahead.

Not sure how you ended up over 25%, but I know exactly how he got under 9%.

The calcs are out on mine because of the benefactor payout to utopian, but I understand where you are heading.

If the bidding round is full or over-subscribed, then profit isn't happening for the bidders - and the rounds are generally full.

Profit is happening if you can remove the curation buy purchasing near 0 minute upvotes. I've seen as low as 3% curation paid and I don't look often so bet others have gotten this lower.

True. The submitting of posts in light with a bidding round to land the vote as soon after post creation has been happening for months.

A few bots wont allow it as they are losing curation too.

Unless you are Pizza guy and your rewards get taken away in a matter of a couple hours for all pending posts...lol. That was amazing.

ha!

Awesome, I was notified of him yesterday and contributed a little DV - didn't check up later, thanks to @anthonyadavisii for bringing that one to light.

I only checked as I needed to let my voting power increase before dropping my flags and went there and it was all complete...lol

I hadn't thought about that. That is very interesting indeed.

follow me, thanks

Leaving comments asking for votes, follows, or other self promotional messages could be seen as spam.

Your Reputation Could be a Tasty Snack with the Wrong Comment!

Thank You! ⚜

not a cool way to get followers. Read and engage on the posts. Normally I would flag you.

The thing is we already have this option, its called promotion. Which is actually even fairer as whales are not getting enriched by it. Just no one wants to use it. Not sure if anyone browses for new content there. I actually never have, but will go take a peek after writing this.

The thing with the newspapers is they actually do get eyes on your work or no one purchases the ads. Except for the mega spenders hitting trending I think for the most part this is not getting eyes on posts. Which is why so many who have been using the votebots keep spending with little interaction from their follower base. The few followers who they collect are mostly bots. I can say with surety I don't know why most of my followers are following as they do not vote or interact with me. Bots or the follow for follow crowd I am guessing.

Overall I think you may be onto something though. It will take away the incentive of the buyers without all the harsh feelings from down votes. Then the whales will go back to circle voting and return things to how it used to be from what I have read. Leaving the rest of us to socialize and grow through smaller connections that have little to do with trending or hot cats, just as it is now.

Then the whales will go back to circle voting and return things to how it used to be from what I have read.

This or behind the scenes pay4vote is likely but compared to the scale we have at present, the reward pool would not be hit as hard.

Every 2.4 hours, something In the region of 5 (conservative) million SP is giving a 100% upvote. The bots maximise the efficiency of taking from the pool each day.

Every 2.4 hours, something In the region of 5 (conservative) million SP is giving a 100% upvote.

I knew it was a lot, but seeing this kind of number is jaw dropping. I know many I have interacted with not only use the bots (which was why I tried them for a bit) but also delegate for higher profits on their account. It would actually increase the votes of the smaller accounts who are delegating as they would have more reason to vote higher/or more since if they don't it is going unused, if most of the bots closed down for lack of customers.

I believe it is helpful that so many who have established yourselves have become very vocal on this. Many come here like myself full of ignorance and take many things at face value at first. The illusions and outright lies are probably just as costly to the long term growth of this site as the manipulation of payouts. I remember debating just a month ago why the bots were necessary for visibility, lol. Took some reading, and reading some more as I watched my own results to really get it. I do believe most using the bots do it believing it gives them low cost visibility, not some insidious plot to rape the rewards. But sadly, except for the big spenders it gets little to no eyes on ones work.

Much of this is perpetuated by how quickly posts are buried, which is why so many have to keep revisiting this issue daily like yourself and tarazkp. It would be nice if they could implement some type of system to pin posts, even if at first only to our own blog pages. A pinned area that receives no payout and one could continuously edit to update new developments. It would help those of you fighting the good fight from starting new at the bottom of the hill to push the boulder (your message) back up it again every day and take less time for those like myself to get it.

Thanks for the comment, 'we' are trying to push that boulder but it's pretty heavy going at present.

When I last checked, around 18m SP was owned/leased by bid-bots. 18m SP voting at 100% every 2.4 hours, ouch!

https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@abh12345/how-much-available-sp-is-there-for-steemit-com-content

Hi abh. That is quite serious. They seem to have way too much power on the platform.

The thing is we already have this option, its called promotion.

Yes, this never really worked though so needs a revamp. Having a promotion tab is like creating a catalogue. Who really reads junk mail? I think @abh12345 has given some interested numbers..

I think the 'eyes on' thing is at least partially a lie.

We have about 60,000 daily users. Of them, I suspect we could have 5-10% who are spammers or in vote-farming rings etc. So it's more like 54-57,000.

Of them, how many are more likely to see a post if it makes it into the 'hot' tab? Because unless you are spending over $200, that's the best you can hope for. That, or topping trending in a less competitive tag.

I haven't done any proper analysis. But at a glance I'm seeing people who've spent $50-100 on votes, who aren't seeing much more than 50-100 views by payout. If it's about numerical 'eyes-on', then your money would be better spent elsewhere. If fact, with a little bit of effort, you can get that many views, even as as a relative newcomer, without spending a cent.

If it's about who sees the post, rather than how many, then that might be different. Hitting the top of a tag, or hot, or trending might be enough for some whale to notice you and throw you a decent upvote. But I think the chances of that are pretty slim.

I see paying bid bots as a few different things.

You don't get a huge return, but they can raise your rep pretty quickly. So, it's kind of like when people used to pay to have someone play their WoW characters while they were at work, so they would still be levelling up.

I suspect for a lot of people, bidbots are a psychological crutch. You pay out some SBD, you get a good vote on your post - and tell yourself you deserve it.

But it's bullshit. When you subtract the fee and the curation, you probably didn't come out very far ahead. And not that many more people are viewing your content unless you spent up big to hit the trending page. Even then, there are much cheaper ways to get 1,500 people to look at your blog post.

If it's about who sees the post, rather than how many, then that might be different. Hitting the top of a tag, or hot, or trending might be enough for some whale to notice you and throw you a decent upvote. But I think the chances of that are pretty slim.

Yeah, I think a little hustle and groundwork would quickly overtake the pay pathway.

You don't get a huge return, but they can raise your rep pretty quickly. So, it's kind of like when people used to pay to have someone play their WoW characters while they were at work, so they would still be levelling up.

Does it make them feel good? The rep is a becoming even more irrelevant with each passing day.

I suspect for a lot of people, bidbots are a psychological crutch. You pay out some SBD, you get a good vote on your post - and tell yourself you deserve it.

Yep. I see a lot of this too.It is kind of like paying a prostitute to say they love you. people who have stopped using them have quickly seen the reality of their true engagement.

When you subtract the fee and the curation, you probably didn't come out very far ahead. And not that many more people are viewing your content unless you spent up big to hit the trending page. Even then, there are much cheaper ways to get 1,500 people to look at your blog post.

Some people are getting far ahead though, they just aren't the users. There are definitely better ways for long-term account sustainability.

people who have stopped using them have quickly seen the reality of their true engagement.

See adonisabril for details :)

I agree that this must be the way how bidbots should do business. Just like an advertise in a news paper. You pay for the space without a guarantee of any return.

You just pay the fees for an advertising/promotional space without draining the prize pool. I like your ideas. This is how it should be!

I am unsure how it would be organised but, I think if it is for promotional reasons, it should be treated something like this at least.

Hi Taraz. Read the post and the comments and got the gist of it. Will need to read again. Have to think out the box to fix this. If everyone who wants change needs to put their thinking caps on otherwise Steemit will be called bottit.

the phishers probably already have bottil, bollit, boltit, bottiit reserved...

This, absolutely, this. In my most basic white girl voice.

I would be all for it, I would have 0 problem paying for ads to bring people to my content that are looking at the tags I add to my post.

1.It would allow new people to get ahead with ads

  1. The option to grow organically would still be viable
  2. Top content producers like you said would not need to do ads because quality posts would get upvoted.
  3. Long term after building a following you see a much higher ROI because you invested the time, energy, and fortitude to endure the growing pains of the platform
  4. True Stability.

How do we make this happen?

Definitely resteeming!

How do we make this happen?

I have no idea but, thank you for the resteem. Perhaps it might fall on someone's eye who has the means.

Let's hope so, or at the least people willing to put their skills to use, devs, financers, and organizers to make it happen.

Only problem I see with your revised system is that newbies who don't have a lot of money would have zero chance of getting exposure. Right now even if you only have 1 SBD, you can keep that 1 SBD going indefinitely because the SBD payouts from bot upvotes will keep you about even, as your SP slowly rises. In your plan, if a newbie only had 1 SBD they could buy, they'd spend it once and never again be able to pay for a little extra visibility for their posts.

Chances are that 1SBD would be whittled down in no time though. What will be returned will be less than that 1 SBD, once the lower SP reward is factored in. And from one who bought into the bot thing very quickly after I got here, I can say for the most part it doesn't do much to get eyes on your work. What seems to work is interacting on others of like minds posts. Those are the people who upvote my comments and my posts. And yes, it is a slow process. But doable just the same.

The whales and those delegating are making out like bandits for something that for most buyers really isn't profitable, although it may be every now and then. I haven't even mentioned those who bid in at the last second, ensuring all the bidders lose 10% or more guaranteed. Or the value of Steem declining over that 7 days from votes being bought. A smaller account serious about growth would be better served investing that SBD into SP and focus on interacting, which involves them going to others posts.

I don't think it's either or. You definitely have to interact on the platform, particularly with posters who actually read their comments and reply to them, folks who want to get to know people on here. And if you don't have enough money, bots aren't going to get you on the trending page. But my experience has been that bots have really helped me too.

Other than my "introduceyourself" post, my 2 posts that I did not use bots on have earned only about $1 or less. My posts that I invested just 2-3 SBD in have earned more like $8-15. I'm giving prices in STU, as shown under rewards, not USD. Even once the 50-50 split is considered, I wind up with about as much SBD as I spend each time, and my SP also grows from each payout.

It is a slow process both from gradually growing relationships and for using bots with only 1-3 SBD per post. But it works way better than only doing one or the other.

But yes, it's definitely not a sure thing. There are always those folks who don't bother to check steembottracker before bidding, or do check it but don't understand the implications of what they see, so ruin the round for everyone. (I actually was that person one time, and by the time I realized it, I couldn't take it back!)

I don't see how the above model affects the content producer? They still get their vote. Maybe I need more coffee...

This is the idea of advertising. A newbie has options to go big and risk losing it or, engage with the community. I run a one person business, I do not have television ads, I have to do a lot of groundwork, always.

I think though that bots aren't exactly advertising. That's the closest model people can come up with to say "it's like this," but close isn't synonymous. It varies from advertising in that there is an expectation that you will just about break even on your spend. I don't think anyone would use bots for true advertising since unlike real advertising there is no guarantee the bots will get you more exposure, where advertisers due produce stats showing readership and suggesting likely returns.

where advertisers due produce stats showing readership and suggesting likely returns.

This is the blockchain, the operators keep saying it is all transparent so, they should be able to provide analysis and projection to users before they spend.

I think the closest to this now is the "last round" details listing on sbt. But 'past performance does not determine future results" has never been more true.

... I wonder how many people would advertise in papers/mags if they had to bid on the ad results and another bidder could at the last second cause everyone to flip from green to red.

ever wondered who those last bidders are?

I figured they're people who send bids from their wallets instead of sbt, so don't see what amount is left to bid. Or they don't mind paying for more exposure, when they could spread out the same SBD and at least be breaking even for the same payouts.

What if it is organised that way? I am not saying it is but, it has the potential to be.

Basically it is up to the whales to have a sorta UN mtg where a decision is finally made in the interest of the platform. My suggestion is an electronic petition for all to sign that is available on steemit, dtube, discord and the like. With this petition people will be educated on the platform rules and vote on this issue by signing it. Also whales can adopt a minnow for steem distribution for witness votes. Need ideas? I got plenty of them. As a newbie I got flagged a couple of times for voting for and commenting on a abuse bot channel. Still recovering. :( 12 step program
Lol. Great post @tarazkp
Joy

There are whale meetings all the time, the UN has decided this is the most profitable approach 😊

We need lobbyist now!!
:v
Joy

I just voted for someone and their post amount decreased. How does that happen? Is that because the post is over 3 hours? Confused. :(
Joy

It is after 4am here at the moment so I think there may be some holes and missed points

I think you have forgotten more things than I will ever know , about steemit...

Gees... I have a lot of comments to answer now.. I shouldn't try to sleep anymore :D

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