Ashes to Ashes, Votes to Dust: Making votes count
Last week @timcliff wrote a post that got a lot of attention both positive and negative in its approach to combat Spam. I am not going to talk about that right now but it brought up something that I didn't know, and I am certain many others don't either.
Payouts from 0.001 - 0.019 do not get paid.
These are called dust amounts. What that means is that if a comment or post only has 1 cent (0.01) on it, there will be no payout. To reach the threshold and qualify for a payout, it must reach at least 0.02. This doesn't mean that a 1 cent vote has no value though, it just means that a one cent vote by itself has no value.
This has some implications I think we should all be aware of but especially the smaller voters. A 0.02 cent vote requires (on current Steem prices) ~80 Steem power at 100% voting power and 100% weight to deliver. This should already have some implications for the spammers underneath that level self-voting thinking they are going to get some rewards for it.
But, there is more to think about now. For example, some people give 1% cent votes as agreements or read receipts but, if you have low SP or voting power, that won't be enough for a payout to somebody.
For example, it will take 500 Steem Power (SP) at 100% Voting Power (VP) and 15% strength to reach 2 cents.
However, it will take 500 Steem Power (SP) at 80% Voting Power (VP) and 20% strength to reach 2 cents.
I am using the 500 SP because that is about where the Steemit slider appears however, places like Busy.org have a slider all the time. But, if one has 100 SP, this is what it looks like with full voting power.
What this means is that all of the comment votes that don't reach that 0.02 cent level do not count. Again, implications. Unfortunately, this means that small votes given are just encouragement awards that don't go toward building accounts unless more votes are added on top to reach the 0.02 level. And, this is where there is an opportunity for people to actually be a part of the community by helping other accounts out.
- If you see a comment or post that deserves a payout but doesn't reach the 0.02 cent level, add a vote on top if you can.
- If you are on a friend's blog and they have tried to reward comments but don't have power to reach it, add a vote if you can
- If you see posts that are under 2 cents and are real posts, add a vote.
If you have a larger account with 1000 SP, this is the minimum at 100% VP you need to add. 8% to give a payout if the only voter.
Those people giving 1% votes? This is the minimum SP needed to give a 1% vote and get a payout:
7500 Steem Power. And, that is at current prices of 3.00 dollars for Steem.
What this means for small accounts trying to community build by adding at least some value to people's comments and posts, you are unable to spread as widely as you are likely going to need to add higher voting percentages. This is more important for comments as it is common that a comment will only get a vote from the author of the post. This might mean you have to be a little more discerning and critical of what comments you upvote.
This should also serve as a warning to commentors also as this should encourage better quality comments, spam isn't going to cut it. Also, a reminder, self-voting comments turns many people off voting on top. I don't like it when people do it on my blog, no matter who they are so, I will often skip voting on them.
Now, my position on this.
I vote on many comments if they add value to the conversation. I notice people cutting lines from my text and saying, "I agree" and that is it. Most of the time, it seems very insincere unless I already know the person well enough to understand behind the words. Add value, or no vote. Look like spam and get flagged like spam. I am going to get stricter again.
Next, the people who vote on my replies to them as an agreement or read receipt. Kind of like a thumbs up. It is appreciated but, unless you have the Steem Power to spare or really think it is worth it, please, I ask you not to vote on my comment on my own posts from now on. I would rather you find other comments or posts that are deserving of some payout and bump them up instead. You can comment on me instead of voting. Of course, if you have the Voting Power to spare, I am not going to flag you for it and it is appreciated.
I am also going to try to visit smaller blogs a little more often and bump some of the comments that deserve it. I know that it isn't much but, it might help the blog grow slightly or, at least encourage better quality comments. If you see me do this on your blog and don't want me to, just say so and I will stop it.
I have a feeling that because many people don't know about the dust threshold, they are thinking that their self-voted spam is earning something. Well, it appears it isn't. This also means that if you come across self voted spam, as long as you don't vote on it and push it over the 0.02 limit, it won't get a payout. Of course, if you have the power to spare, check their comments section and if they are indeed a spammer, flag them.
This dust level has something to do with the way the blockchain works and will change slightly in the next HF, Velocity. You can read about it here and perhaps work something different out of it.
I wrote this (hoping the information is correct) because I have got a couple messages over the last week about it from some small community builders asking what they should do. Again, I recommend to keep building. If you can bump them into earning something great, but even if you can't, it is encouraging to get votes still. It is the thought that counts. I am hoping those that engage often with each other can team up a little and help one another in this regard too.
I hope this clears something up or at least, raises some questions and attracts some answers from some people who might know a lot more than I.
Taraz
[ a Steemit original ]
The images are taken from @penguinpablo's steemnow.com calculator
Oh it is a lot, believe me. I got the chance to find you in the early days of my Steemit journey, and even a 1% upvote from you meant a great deal for me. Just the knowledge that there's a bigger player wanting to support newcomers is a big boost of motivation. Don't underestimate your importance to your little followers Taraz. It might be more significant than you think :).
If I see a post or comment at .02 a lot of times I will upvote it to try and make sure it gets paid out. The .01 posts with multiple upvotes are what really sucks. :( I'll also often let people know that their self upvotes don't count when I see those .00 or .01 self upvotes.
The small accounts actually meana lot to me because they are often the ones who engage well. I do understand the larger accounts being spread thin though as I know for myself, it is very, very hard to get to comments these days with the depth I would like.
@tarazkp They do engage well and that's been my favorite part of steemit so far, the community! Thanks for supporting the smaller accounts! I don't know if you want me to upvote your comment or not haha. I'll save it for a smaller account today
@tarazkp this was also news to me. I need to check the data but i think as the comments table in the DB includes all payout, dust too, anyone from #blockchainbi will need to be aware of this for future calculations.
Have resteemed
Great post!
The price of steem does impact vote value.
I have been trying to educate people when I see them self upvoting and thinking their votes count.
I think .01 should be the earnings threshold.
You can use bots to "get around" the threshold.
This is fucking stupid.
1 cent spammers are not the major problem on steem. This doesn't effect the assholes in trending earning $1000 per post on absolute shit. This affects tiny accounts making a few cents.
Yeah, spammers can technically make a million posts earning 1 cent on each...but that's what bandwidth was supposed to deal with, if it actually worked. Remember that fiasco? Spammers still spamming, but legit users couldn't post.
I'm pretty sure I made less than 2 cents on my first few posts. Fuck these idiots. "Let's solve a problem by making a bigger problem!"
Raising the threshold would be even worse. I have made less than $1 on some posts I've poured my heart and soul into.
How can they even think this is a bigger issue than accounts getting thousands of dollars for absolute shit posts, and becoming whales, and then being the ones that determine who is rewarded in the future?
Yes but, I think it has always been this way here (we just didn't know). If you read the velocity post it hints at why. Something to do with bandwidth and flooding the system. Perhaps it is a legacy issue.
Indeed.
Yeah, I agree. There are other ways to combat it but, that is what Tim's discussion was about.
So many complications and layers of complexity. The complexity here is killing it.
You totally did the quote and agree bit! HAHA!
There's an issue my brain keeps going back to. All those posts that minnows voted on that didn't get over the dust threshold...they basically lost their VP.
What happens if people start pushing the idea that if you're a minnow, you shouldn't vote on anything that hasn't been voted on yet, unless you can push it over the dust threshold? The minnow problem will get even worse here. Often when you're new it's only tiny little minnows and plankton voting on you.
Hell, to this day occasionally a large percentage of my payout is tons of small votes on comments. Although now I know all the minnow votes were just fucking disappearing if they didn't have someone with more power to back them up.
There is even some fun and useful spam. Like those stupid achievements. I kinda like those. I bet they make a lot less due to this dust threshold.
I did.
...but, I did add something too ;) Also.. look how many damn comments I have had to answer... give me a break :P
Yeah, :/ I wish I had known about it soon er as I would have changed some of the advice I have given.
The votes stack of course but, most comments don't get many votes usually. I am glad I know about this now though and hopefully more people will adjust for it.
Steemitboard? I use that sight all the time for various numbers and Arcange has other projects ongoing too. Plus, you can stop it just by commenting stop.
Yes i just don't see why others dont vote its not like its coming out of their pockets? Im just a week old and learning but i give my votes to random people just because i like what the post has in it, either its pictures or content ❣ i really dont care if they follow me or i follow them its that i think it deserves it. Or am i wrong?
Nah, that's how you're supposed to do it, more or less. You find good content you like and upvote it. If it's really good, you might follow them, but whether you upvote it or not should not be dependent on if you know them.
But thats how whales work? They get so much upvotes bc their followers just do it to get it in return?
Well, a lot of whales do have a lot of people sucking up to them. I'm pretty sure many of them just upvote content they like, just like the rest of us, but there are a few corrupt ones. Many of them use various means to auto-vote as well, since it's hard when your 100% vote is over $100. You can't exactly easily find posts worth a lot of money that haven't already been voted up that high. So they follow voting trails, and auto-vote some users with a certain percentage.
Wow if a vote at 100% gives $100 wouldn't that mean that a 1% would be $1 ? I can only deam that someday i can help others with that kind of kindness. I mean its not like we have to pay with real money from our pockets to get steem points.
Well, not necessarily money from our pockets, but we do earn it in a way. It's like a company paying us in shares. It's directly convertible to Steem, which is a cryptocurrency.
I read of these crumbs the other day and will admit to feeling a little crushed. I finally reached a point where it says it will award .01. While not much, it is better than .00 (or so I thought). It won't change how I interact on the site, but I feel bad that I can't really reward those who I interact with, other than with my wit and charming disposition. 😁
This goes a long way.
And even if your vote is only 01, it is nothing to worry about. You read or see something you like you vote, and leave a comment. That person may look your site over. The biggest thing to look at here is that it is 100% waste of time for you to vote your own comments up. I look at the votes a comment and a post have first, if you upvote your post that is generally fine, if you upvote your own comment, sorry I am one of those that will not upvote a comment the commenter self voted. When you upvote your own post, if no one else votes for it, your self vote just got "dusted". So find good comments or good post to vote on.
One thing to think about also when looking at a post to vote on, if it has 20+ votes, the fact you voted may be buried, yes you may get a curation pay out (0.001SP), but a smaller less voted post may be best for starting out. However it really depends on the question of why you are here, and there really is a lot of reasons, some to make money, some to play games, some to blog, some to gain fame, some to...well you get the idea. For myself, I like to vote and to comment, and to read, and I try to help where I can, especially the new users.
I agree with this, although I chose not to vote on my last post either. I am still feeling my way here as to my contributions posting as the first posts I made, many were things I could have made money on self publishing and they were met with crickets here. I am to vain to post memes or just idle cheerleader crap that you see so many posting.
I had to step back as well, as I found myself voting on so many posts and replies to my comments that my voting power was dipping down to 50% and under. I finally got it back to 100% over the last weekend, at the expense of ignoring some posts I normally may have weighed in upon.
I am looking forward to the day that my vote can reward another monetarily though. I know how it has made me feel, and how some who are not as blessed as myself feel. When I first got here, I came across a post from someone from Nigeria I think. He was talking how Steem had blessed him. He showed his old shoes he used to wear, and the new pair he was able to purchase with Steem. He also had pictures of him and his friends eating in a restaurant. Something he was unaccustomed to doing. His post really touched me, and put my life into perspective.
Thanks for sharing. It is through these type of interactions I am shaping my expectations of my Steemit experience.
I came across this post just in time. I was pretty excited to finally have 0.01 to spread around. Now I won't waste it on the few comments I get on my posts. It will be put to much better use to visit those people and vote where it will count more. Us little guys really do have to use each penny wisely. I am glad to find so many people sharing knowledge. It can be hard as a newbie to come up with a strategy, especially when not knowing all the facts.
BTW comment section here is pure gold. I learned all kinds of interesting bits. Also found some new people to check out :)
I would not view your vote on comments on your post a waste. You are doing pretty good, 118 followers since joining in March. I am sure a few of them were likely people that commented on your content. Voting on comments (at least a few of them), and replying back to your audience is a good way to build a loyal group of followers. Take a minute to think about it. Would you continually provide an upvote to an individual that had good content, but never in your last four visit upvote any comments made or even replied to any comments? Can you imagine being in a comedy club and the act you just watched was really good, lots of applause, and the comedian does not even acknowledge the audience and just walks off stage with out so much as a thank you. Are you bringing your friends to see him the next night? IF you want to grow you have to engage with your audience. You don't need to upvote every comment, you do not need to reply to every comment, you should upvote the best comment/s and reply to a few of the comments, that is how you get repeat customers, they took the time to read, to comment and to likely vote on your post, you need to acknowledge them.
I think you are wrong. Here is why. I was upvoting all of my comments. Obviously a mistake. Those votes would be more useful on the cementers blog for now. When I have more SP I can go back to that. Many followers are small fish like me. those pennies matter a lot. It is more considerate to be mindful that they get a tiny bit of pay out.
Also If you take a peek you will see I respond to everybody i feel at my level I absolutely do need to respond to every single one. Maybe for someone like you who gets more traffic that is unrealistic, but at my level there is no reason not to engage with every comment I get.
I know you are trying to be helpful. I feel you have made assumptions and misjudged without looking at my history. Would you continue to visit a comedy club where a heckler remained unaddressed when the rest of the audience was enjoying the show ? I truly do appreciate you trying to help. At the same time I can't believe anyone would just assume I am being rude to my followers.
I apologize, I did not mean for my comment to sound rude. I honestly do not think a vote on a comment is a waste. A comment back on good comments are needed, and I did not mean to imply you did not reply to your commenters.
There are a lot of different strategies to growing on steemit.- - - As for Hecklers, at every opportunity - (thank you) - I plug for an upgrade to the "mute" button to a "Blocked" button. It would work like the mute button, only no one would see any comments from that person ever on any of your pages when you have them "blocked". Of course this "blocked" button would not prevent them from downvoting your page. A new steemcleaners blacklist would need to be added that would address retaliatory downvoting however.
Thank you so much for that. I shouldn't have said you are wrong. I disagree for my situation but your way is great for you. When I am a bigger fish like you I can do the same.
I was a bit crushed to find out I have been upvoting every comment and my votes all turned to dust. That is a lot pennies that someone would have loved to have had. I do feel that I wasted them. Now I know better I will stack them where the intended person is sure to receive something.
It means a lot to me to try and make a difference here. I have no power so all I really have are my little comments right now. For you the right thing is upvote everyone and return a few comments. For me it is opposite for now. I comment a LOT. I have only made 8 posts and 360 comments.
Strategy is something I think about a lot. I am always open to advice and truly appreciate you taking the time for me. BTW I have a little sidekick who resembles your avatar :)
I try o help a lot of the new users, because there was not a lot of help when I first joined. I can not tell you how many times I read or got told also, "What my post was good enough for a comment but not a vote?" I hated seeing that, and I have a few people on mute that used that line. I have also been flagged, and lost reputation over it, just for asking a question that was slightly out of context, and received very little help for that. So I do understand about wanting to try to help, because I did also, and now can, and do try.
Likewise, I love to comment. There is so much good stuff, and most of my comments actually do go on post that get very little attention. I like stuff that is pleasing to the eye, nice pictures and art, they do not get enough attention sometimes comment wise, but I am getting much better at my picture and art work comments.
... and there are those that thought that their lonely $0.01 vote is going to the recipient :-)
After raging on that post we met on, I started an initiative that would do much more for my community than my upvote could do. A discord group and a community upvote bot that's built to upvote the new and promising members of the community.
I believe that we will get enough SP delegated to support ~20 newcomers with a modest daily upvote.
:/ Yeah, I think back to all of the times I was trying to give people rewards that they might never have got. Meh, at least going forward adjustment is possible now.
Good luck with the group. I think you will find that enjoying being part of the community will add value in itself and in time, will likely add financial value too.
Thanks so much I wasnt aware of this - and in sure like 90% of steemians arent either.
People should be educated that upvoting yout own comments is poor form -and at the lower level its a complete waste of an upvote that could have gone towards an article you liked.
I dont think that increasing the threshhold will do much apart from making people mad.
Maybe once people have been flagged as spammers then their threshold should increase - once they have been a proven spammer then we should be harsh.
On the flipside i think alot of spammers dont actually know their comments come across like spam so maybe we need to be lenient and educate people
Hi there Tarazkp ~ been a while as have been travelling and reordering our lives :)
This is an intriguing post and makes me wonder if you ever sleep what with your consistent posting of quality and backroom knowledge!
I will need to read it several times to really grasp the implications of your suggested voting strategy which seems to be of value.
Offline for about 5 weeks, except for phone access, I never got the chance to truly thankyou for the delegated SP you generously afforded me. It certainly made a difference and it was unfortunate that several of the weeks coincided with our move. That said I made sure to make great use of it prior to our getting our wiggle on!
Also thanks for the upvotes.
I hope you and yours are well and send you a virtual hug and pint.
xox
You are most welcome and I hope the travel and move went well. I have dropped by a couple times to have a look and give you a little bump from time to time.
No... not much sleep in the last year.
Gotta get that shut eye ~ says the 'Dormouse'!
I appreciate greatly your bumps as I often appear to be blowing in the breeze indulging myself with vanity posting :)
Heyho ~ onwards and upwards.
Enjoy your week.
xox
And yet, there are a ton of peps adjoined & following a bunch of dumbass blind trails/guilds always raising a dust storm cloud of trifling upvotes at 10% and less of their VP when they don't even reach the 100SP.
Yeah, avoid reading chumps. That those dark glasses will do you good!! }:)
(Actually, I need to resteem this for my countrymen & low SP followers. So they know & understand these thangs a lil bit better)
As long as the payout of the post goes over that 2 cents, they will get something. But, self-upvoting alone with 2SP?
:)