RE: Steemit's Got Issues! - Bid Bot Abuse - Take 1
Hi Michael,
It was a great read. I read till the end. Some fantastic points in there. Some I agree with, some I don't. But it's a discussion so I should add something useful.
Voting late happens on crappy content because receiving big votes on older content doesn't bring it much visibility. The trending and hot feeds prefer fresh content. There is a lot of grey in this activity.
I was looking for a point on reputation score algorithm abuse but I sadly found none. The way reputation system works, bid bots are massively responsible for tearing apart the very fundamental reason of its existence; distinguishing those who add value from those who don't.
Would it be not iteresting if the blockchain, for one week, shows reputation scores not including the effects of bid bots? Can we imagine how many users will drop by how many numbers? I'll drop to 62 I know. I know some who will drop from 63 to 40 may be.
I think the only abuse happening right now is the working of bid bots itself. I prefer content promotion services like @minnowbooster and @smartsteem to bid bots simply because they promote your content at an expected return rate. Bid bots have been profiting a lot due to excessive bids because they do not return the bids when their capacity to vote for existing bids is filled. @honestbot is a ray of hope in this regard. It returns your token if it can't vote with enough value.
I know people, including me, who are tired of reporting spammers and scammers. But as a community, we need to keep doing this. @themarkymark goes to great lengths to find out and cancel abuse of reward system. You care about it too. Anyone profiting from the gift economy of Steem should care.
Please add your opinion on reputation algorithm abuse as well because it is important. Thank you!
Thanks for joining the discussion!
minnowbooster is a bid bot with a fancy name and different coding lol. you bid, you get a vote, bid bot. Also, the return from minnowbooser is all over the place and you have no way of knowing what it will be. I love reggea and what he does, but it is one of the reasons i dont really use it anymore. Way to unpredictable for me personally. Other bid bots you can get much closer to knowing what you will get back using @yabapmatt's bot tracker.
Though it used to be a big issue a couple months ago, the issue with excessive bids has been solved also ever since @yabapmatt created his bot tracker. People very very rarely over bid now.
Bid bots are clearly not the only abuse here. the worst abuse on steemit comes from spam accounts, account farming and unnecessary self votes of large whales actually. Far more coming from these places than bid bots. In fact I was just going through steemcleaners blacklist yesterday of over 5500 accounts and as I went through it was clear that they were largely account farms and spammers, most seemed to be farms.
Bots have had an impact on the rep system this is certainly true. However it is really flawed to begin with. You can get a good rep just from being friends with a whale and getting one or two votes from them I've actually proven this physically. That clearly should not be a show of real rep. This needs updated somehow. Possibly to include the idea of bid bots being here.
I don't see bots as having abused this, instead i feel it is simply flawed to begin with. You can bring an account with nothing posts to a rep of 50 super quickly by just voting a small number of times on posts from it using a higher rep/sp account. I've seen accounts hit 45 rep in their first post actually from this exact thing. I've also not seen much benefit from having a high rep other than what it can do for someone if you upvote them.
Currently we share blacklists among several bot owners and I believe @themarkymark is a part of that. I'm also about to start using @steemcleaners entire list of abusive accounts (currently over 5500). I'm actually converting it into a form I can use right now and will also be sharing this list with other bot owners.
The only abuse I see from bid bots is the abusive accounts that have had the chance to use them, which myself and many other owners are actively remedying. In reality they are helping minnows out a lot. It's actually helping re balance some of the older issues we've had here with many whales simply not helping minnows in exchange for only helping themselves or friends. Which is potentially why certain whales are upset by it lol.
I know what you mean about being tired of reporting spammers and scammers. I also believe that when it comes to bid bots, we as owners of them are responsible for rooting them out of our services since we are the ones voting on them. This is why myself and @sneaky-ninja will now be working with @steemcleaners. We will be on air discussing this tonight at 12pm utc (7pm est) if you want to listen in.
There is definitely a lot of grey area in voting late. It is for that very reason that we cannot make a blanket, black and white rule that it is bad. Some are abusing it and some are not.
Actually, fun little side note... There was an account called @abusereports just started that is showing anyone voting on the sixth day. I was pleased to see that since that account has started there have only been 2 votes from @sneaky-ninja on their lists. :)
I cannot agree more. Absolutely true. No form of abuse is bigger than spammy content getting rewarded and vote farming.
I meant that people are using bid bots to tear apart the essence of reputation algorithm. Having higher reputation certainly helps because it is a social signal. Any social signal helps users get attention (and votes). I would still voice my opinion for upholding the purpose of reputation system.
Regarding having a shared blacklist if you will, I think it is an absolute need at the moment. Any people who are handling abuse should collaborate. I know @therealwolf is using blacklist of @themarkymark for regulating SmartSteem. More collaboration is needed. Steem Cleaners' 5500 strong list is gold for fighting abuse.
I really appreciate your thorough response. I also appreciate your concern for the integrity of bid bots and reward system. I share the same concern but you well placed to make things happen. Best of luck!
I totally agree in having a reputation system. I just feel it needs altered/ tweaked so it's better.
About bid bots, I would really like a little honesty like the @honestbot. Return what you can't vote for. If 100 % vote is worth $230, return bids after 100 SBD have been sent (supposing the bot is designed to vote worth at least $2.3 per SBD). I would really appreciate that.
That is just advertising man... the truth is that ever since @yabapmatt created the bot tracker no one ever over bids.
Its not like it was when bellyrub was here anymore.