This is a argument to a muslim friend
Yes you are right the word trinity didn't exist. The doctrine that jesus and Father share the same nature are very common, you know the early christians believed in trinitarien doctrine that jesus and father are one together. Infact ignatius of antioch sent a letter to epehsians and explained that jesus christ is God. Keep in mind, antioch was one of the first churches that ever existed, apostle peter built that church. This is the letter Ignatius wrote
" But our Physician is the Only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh." Being incorporeal, He was in the body, being impassible, He was in a passible body, being immortal, He was in a mortal body, being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts".
there are many letters he wrote, keep in mind, the word physician is jesus. Jesus is known to be the physician. In the bible you can see that jesus says that he and his father is one. Yes Jesus indeed said that the important commandment is to love God. Yup. But you are missing something big. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:4 . intresting part is that Lord in hebrew is YWHW which is the father, but if you look at the word God you will see the the word is elohim. Elohim is plural in divinity. which means that there are more than just one person. This clarify the scripture. that YWHW and elohim is one. This matches perfectly to the descriptons of jesus being one with father. There are many instances of God representing as plural. just look at genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.. God in hebrew is elohim again. It is plural. so it means that there were 2 or 3 persons that created heaven and the earth.
This also happens in Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
God is elohim, which is again plural and it states let us make man in OUR image, AFTER OUR LIKENESS.
You need to undestand the olde testament inorder for you to understand the new testament, yes God is one but it doesn't mean God is one person.
No the dead seascrolls are not hidden, you can acces these scrolls in numerous museeum or universites. Dead sea scrolls are in orange county you can acces these your self. Yes I would agree I that they have taken some dead sea scroll we don't know of. I want you to give me information that the dead sea scrolls makes paul a liar. No the dead sea scroll did not say anything about jesus or jesus being a prophet. It talks about the comming messiah, i will give you examples. yes paul wrote 52% of new testament, so ? I'm sorry but why do you take Dr frank stranger when he have his conference Aetherius Society, and they them self are the elite. -_-..... do your research. it is a new age movement. Don't trust new age people. They believe jesus and buddha comes from venus.............................................. They believe that humanity are gods.so you are going against your own religion and your argument. I didn't know you believe that valiant thor comes from venus HAHHA. Secondly he does not make any argument again dead sea scrolls, he says that angels came down here. which confirms the bible. actually i believe he qoute from book of enoch. But he went on to say "oh space ships blah balh" which is bogus.
In mark 1:24 it says Saying," Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. "so it is clerly says thay Jesus is God. but there are many references to Jesus being God. I don't have the time to put all the verses here.
When i said that they found gospels among the dead sea scrolls i meant partilly. In 7q3-18 They found greek fragments and some of these are very fimiliar to some gospels such as mark. Many scholars debate on this topic. You can do your own research but if you compare mark 6:52-53 you will see similaritees. Again people debate on this topic, so do your own reseach and decide for your self. The intressting is that these fragments were 68 AD before the remans came and destroyed the temples in 70 AD. In history there are different style of writings and because of that you determen when ancient texts come from. These fragments they got indicates that these style of writings come from 50 AD which is 20 or 10 after his death. It has to be before 70 AD because in mark 13: 1-2 it says:And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down
and that's what the romans did in 70 AD, it is historically confirmed that it happened. and as I said there are 20 greek fragments in cave 7 but they reference to new testament. but i will not mention it because as i said many scholars debates about it.
In 4Q246 you will see it talks about son of God which is very intresting. It says that the messiah will be the son of God. Son of God is only in the new testament. but here is what the text says :
He will be called the son of God, they will call him the son of the Most High. But like the meteors
that you saw in your vision, so will be their kingdom. They will reign only a few years over
the land, while people tramples people and nation tramples nation.
Until the people of God arise; then all will have rest from warfare.
Their kingdom will be an eternal kingdom, and all their paths will be righteous. They will judge
the land justly, and all nations will make peace. Warfare will cease from the land,
and all the nations shall do obeisance to them. The great God will be their help,
He Himself will fight for them, putting peoples into their power,
overthrowing them all before them. God's rule will be an eternal rule and all the depths of
the earth are His
this correlates with luke 1:32
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Keep in mind that the dead sea scrolls reference messiah as God. intresting? Here is another scroll that mentions messiah, this one is special because it will prophecie what the messiah will do and it says that he will heal etc.... Here it is : Messianic Apocalypse (4Q521) " For the heavens and the earth shall listen to his messiah for he(i.e God) will honor the pious upon the throne of his eternal kingdom, setting prisoners free, opening the eyes of the blind, raising up those who are bowed down. Fir he shall heal the critically wounded he shall revive the dead. He shall send GOOD NEWS (aka gospel) to the afflicted. He shall satisfy the poor. He shall quide the uprooted He shall make the hungry rich and discerning ones and all of them as the holy ones..........." (4Q521 2+4 ii:1, 7-8, 12-14"
Then there are 11Q13 ( Melchizedek document). Before i will talk about that document i will just briefly talk about jesus being Melchizedek. In John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” It says that Jesus met abraham and that jesus existed before abraham, if you remember in genesis, they used the word elohim which is plural and it says that they created man of their likeness. hmm.
So this means we would find a guy that abraham met that look like jesus in a personal level. Intressting part is that abraham met a mysterious man that just appeared out of nowhere after the battle abraham had.
Genesis 14:18-20 8 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him and said:
“Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him [a]a tithe of all.
Salem actually means peace in hebrew. So melchizedek is king of peace and he is the priest of God most high. hmm... then he had bread and wine with abraham. To break down this to peaces will need to understand jesus character. Jesus is king of all kings and he is the priest of YHWH. Funny thing is that priests in through out the old testament were never kings, there is only one and that is the comming messiaha aka jesus christ. In Psalm 110:4 it continues like this:
The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
“You are a priest forever
after the order of Melchizedek.”
It means that the messiah will be a priest forever. It also refer Melchizadek which is very intresting in my opinion. in zacharia it also talks about him being a priest and a king It is he who shall build the temple of the LORD and shall bear royal honor, and shall sit and rule on his throne. And there shall be a priest on his throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”’ Zechariah 6:13
Isaiah 9:6
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon[a] his shoulder,
and his name shall be called[b]
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
this one is talking about the comming messiah being prince of peace. If you remember I said that melchizedek being king of peace hmm ?? but a prince will be a king.
The new testament also says that jesus is mechizedek:
Hebrews 6:20
20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrew7 1-3 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
so Jesus was Melchisedec, so now that you undestand that persons name we can go back to the dead sea scroll. As i said they found a document that is called " Melchizedek document,"
so please take your time to read this document, and thanks to reading this long text :) 11QMelch
II... And concerning that which He said, In [this] year ofJubilee [each of you shall return to his property (Lev. xxv, 13); and likewise, And this is the manner of release:] every creditor shall release that which he has lent [to his neighbour. He shall not exact it of his neighbour and his brother], for God's release [has been proclaimed] (Deut. xv, 2). [And it will be proclaimed at] the end of days concerning the captives as [He said, To proclaim liberty to the captives (Isa. lxi, 1). Its interpretation is that He] will assign them to the Sons of Heaven and to the inheritance of Melchizedek; f[or He will cast] their [lot] amid the po[rtions of Melchize]dek, who will return them there and will proclaim to them liberty, forgiving them [the wrong-doings] of all their iniquities. And this thing will [occur] in the first week of the Jubilee that follows the nine Jubilees. And the Day of Atonement is the e[nd of the] tenth [Ju]bilee, when all the Sons of [Light] and the men of the lot of Mel[chi]zedek will be atoned for. [And] a statute concerns them [to prov]ide them with their rewards. For this is the moment of the Year of Grace for Melchizedek. [And h]e will, by his strength, judge the holy ones of God, executing judgement as it is written concerning him in the Songs of David, who said, ELOHIM has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgement (Psalms lxxxii, 1). And it was concerning him that he said, (Let the assembly of the peoples) return to the height above them; EL (god) will judge the peoples (Psalms vii, 7-8). As for that which he s[aid, Howlong will you] judge unjustly and showpartiality to the wicked? Selah (Psalms lxxxii, 2), its interpretation concerns Belial and the spirits of his lot [who] rebelled by turning away from the precepts of God to ... And Melchizedek will avenge the vengeance of the judgements of God... and he will drag [them from the hand of] Belial and from the hand of all the sp[irits of] his [lot].And all the 'gods [of Justice'] will come to his aid [to] attend to the de[struction] of Belial. And the height is ... all the sons of God... this ... This is the day of [Peace/Salvation] concerning which [God] spoke [through Isa]iah the prophet, who said, [How] beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the messenger who proclaims peace, who brings good news, who proclaims salvation, who says to Zion: Your ELOHIM [reigns] (Isa. lii, 7). Its interpretation; the mountains are the prophets... and the messenger is the Anointed one of the spirit, concerning whom Dan[iel] said, [Until an anointed one, a prince (Dan. ix, 25)] ... [And he who brings] good [news] , who proclaims [salvation]: it is concerning him that it is written... [To comfort all who mourn, to grant to those who mourn in Zion] (Isa. lxi, 2-3). To comfort [those who mourn: its interpretation], to make them understand all the ages of t[ime] ... In truth ... will turn away from Belial... by the judgement[s] of God, as it is written concerning him, [who says toZion] ; your ELOHIM reigns. Zion is ..., those who uphold the Covenant, who turn from walking [in] the way of the people. And your ELOHIM is [Melchizedek, who will save them from] the hand of Belial. As for that which He said, Then you shall send abroad the trump[et in] all the land (Lev. xxv, 9) ..