The elephant in the room you don't see until it steps on you or someone near you...

in #steemit7 years ago


Steemit and steem are a great thing. They are also a very new thing. There are SOME places where we can make historical comparisons to what it is. Yet, in reality it is a hybrid of many concepts and as such that makes it a totally new thing that there really is no historical precedent. This means there are also a new set of problems that have never been encountered before in history. We as the community as well as the developers of the blockchain and various websites and apps like Steemit will need to seek solutions to issues that have not really ever existed in quite the hybrid combination that they are found here.


Source: WondersList

I want this to be a more positive post. I've had enough negative ranting posts on the topic here in the past, and calling for people to change behavior, expressed my concern over negative PR implications and such.

There are A LOT of new people though and you were not involved in the cycles of discussing these issues.

Please keep in mind that EVEN with these blemishes that we haven't implemented a solution for yet Steem and Steemit are still the best community on the internet in terms of social discussion, dialog, and creativity inspiration that I am aware of.

Eventually it is unavoidable that you will notice something. The down vote (aka flag) and the negative impact it can have on perceptions. This is more a perceptual thing.

This site and project are billed as being anti-censorship. Technically this is true as you cannot delete anything from the steem blockchain. It is there if you are willing to look at the blockchain with tools that can see everything.

The steem blockchain is truly a wonderous thing. People can design websites to view that data however they want. If for example you wanted to move an online newspaper off of its current host and onto the steem blockchain you could move that data over as blog posts, and you could build your news website to ONLY show posts from people that work at the newspaper. In such a case people like us using steemit.com would see their news posts mixed in with the rest of steem posts. However, people visiting the news website could get essentially a customized view that ONLY showed their articles. This means you could move traditional websites based around blogging, news, etc to the steem blockchain and your customers and business could benefit from being part of the steem ecosystem with voting, rewards, rewarding your readers, etc.

So that is a positive. It also explains why people argue you cannot censor things. The data is there, you simply need a way to see it. However, most of us for the time being will tend to use the flagship website steemit.com. There are already alternatives such as esteem, and busy.org.

The problem comes in when you see a post voted into oblivion that is not plagiarism, is not spam, and is not abusive. The only problem appears to be that some person(s) with a lot of steem power decided for some reason they didn't like the post. So if there is a big enough ding it will hide the post in some sense due to their down vote. It will be there, but grayed out and lower visibility unless some people with sufficient reputation come along and rescue it by up voting it. This is only one side effect though. Another thing some people may view as censorship if say they are a newspaper like above is that the potential reward for that post could be forced to $0 or greatly reduced. If the funding is important to being able to produce what is being produced then that could effectively end such a publication. "You are not censored", "I can't afford to keep doing it for free", "If you are here for the money you're here for the wrong reason", "This is what I do for a living, don't you want as many people as possible to use this platform", "We can do without some people", "Okay, I'll let my subscribers know why I am not using this platform". That is just me making up a dialog of back and forth between a person who was down voted and the person that down voted him. They usually are not that pleasant.

The problem is this. There were people that were in the right place at the right time and mined steem back when you could still mine. When steemit was launched back in July they already had a lot of steem power. Being in the right place at the right time does not mean a person may not be a jerk and feel a need to decide what other people should or should not have the right to see. This is very real. However, it is not due exclusively to them having this power at the beginning. The platform could support anyone with a lot of money instantly buying steem and powering themselves up to be at equivalent power. So WHEN (it will happen) steem truly explodes and a lot of people join we could end up with more powerful people overnight if they are willing to spend the money. Having a lot of money or power doesn't mean a person may not be intolerant, biased, and feel the need to oppress topics and/or people they don't like. This is human nature. It has been a problem throughout history.

The only positive to instant super powerful accounts being created is that this will drive the value of steem up a lot, and those of us that have steem will see the value of our accounts increase by quite a bit.

There has been a lot of debating and discussing on how to handle this. Technically the down vote IS the opposite of an up vote and you would think the impact of each would be equivalent. In a purely rational/logical sense this is true. By observation over many months I have concluded that for most people the down vote has a much larger psychological impact here on steemit than an up vote. This appears to be tied to the monetary aspect of the site being a force multiplier on the psyche.

The initial design of steemit was clearly modeled after reddit, and you can even see that in the name steemit. Reddit can become like trench warfare with it's down vote wars. It can be pretty hostile. Some people love it. Others hate it and avoid reddit primarily for that reason. It'd be nice not to have brought the same potential baggage to this design. This is amplified by the presence of money. People are more ecstatic when they get an up vote that rewards them well, and on the flip side when it takes rewards away they feel down trodden. Observation has shown me that on a purely psychological level the negative seems to have a larger weight. It can lead to depression, anger, etc. It can lead people to leave steemit, and if they have a following that can lead to negative PR against steemit.

This problem exists. It is a tricky one to navigate. Part of being decentralized and censorship free is that you cannot create a controlling group to monitor and police this. Such groups eventually can become biased themselves, they also CENTRALIZE operations and give a point of attack if someone wanted to take down or control the blockchain. This means some of the obvious things people have tried in other locations cannot be applied here if we wish to remain decentralized, and if our goal is to be censorship free at the blockchain level.

I do have some things I can tell you that might help. Besides the fact that there are simply always going to be jerks in the world, there are also some perceptual things that are colliding here.

There are really two things that have combined on steem. We have a market that has also combined with a boardroom/shareholder type environment. The problem is that markets and boardrooms treat votes very different from each other, but we've kind of combined them.

If you view steemit.com as a market for ideas, creativity, dialog, etc as I initially did then you view it much like walking into a store. When you walk into a store you BUY the things you are interested in, and you IGNORE the things you are not. You don't walk into a store with a black sharpy and start drawing big black negative check marks on the things you don't like. This is not how a market works. Instead you buy the things you are interested in, and people who like other things buy those. You don't get to decide "I hate caviar so no one should get paid for it". You don't need to. You simply let the market manage those things. Supply and Demand. It is not Supply, Demand, and Dislike. Dislike is not really a factor in a market. The factor really is how many people LIKE it (Demand) and thus will pay for it.

A boardroom on the other hand you call for votes on motions, ideas, etc and it is a YES or NO type of situation. Down votes make sense in this regard. Your steem power can be viewed as shares in a company. That is essentially what it is. It is Proof of Stake.

The interesting without historical precedent situation we are in is that we are actually using a hybrid. It is both of those things slammed together. This means we have a new set of never seen problems, that WE need to work together as a community to solve. They cannot magically solve themselves, and there is no red EASY button to press. In addition, people will suggest fixes based upon other historical situations that actually don't apply here. Some fixes may seem to address this problem while creating others.

Even with this voting issue steemit and steem are still one of the greatest things out there.

So what can you do? The only thing you can do is try to convince a person through reason not to be a jerk. Obviously calling them a jerk, and ranting at them is not going to work. In fact, it may simply get them to flag all of your posts. So the best course of action may be to be civil and plead your case on a purely rational sense. There are some people this may have no impact on. There are other cases it may work. The up side is if you DO succeed then perhaps how that person votes in the future may change.

We all can vote however we like. That is not going to change without centralizing and giving control to something/someone. We actually want people to vote how they want, I simply believe most people are viewing it as a market and the way the down vote works is very ALIEN in a market environment.

Realizing it is a hybrid might mentally shield you from some of the psychological impact of a down vote.

I have always been an advocate and defender in my life for the underdog, the bullied, etc. I have been anti-bully and would get right in their face. I personally have not been target flagged by anyone very powerful. I have had dialogs between myself and one of the more powerful people that would sometimes do this. I tried to keep it civil and when he resorted to name calling and belittling I did not. I did not take that bait. He did not flag me. I know he realizes I care about the community and I did treat him with civility even though we strongly disagreed on some points. Other people have bumped heads with him and become on his auto-flag bot so everything they post was flagged by him. I avoided that. SO FAR. Perhaps you can too, and that is why I shared how I approached it.

I challenged him and others not over me being flagged, but simply one of my TRIGGERS that I feel the need to stand up to those I perceive as bullies. When a person reduces potential earnings of someone for purely subjective reasons (i.e. other than plagiarism, spam, abuse) it can come across much like being bullied. This is an aspect of viewing it as a market rather than a boardroom. What we must remember is it is BOTH. It is truly something new, which means it has a new set of never before solved problems.

We can get angry and storm off and yell about it, or we can try to be part of the solution. We can work with the community and eventually we are sure to come up with solutions to these never before encountered problems.

Steem and Steemit are great. This is one of the big blemishes that EVERYONE eventually will get a glimpse of. It is the elephant that is there, but you don't notice it until it happens to step on you, or someone near you. Your face turns pale as you see it's massive bulk crush something. Fight or Flight then kicks in. Resisting the Fight or Flight mechanism is what we need to attempt to do.

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"By observation over many months I have concluded that for most people the down vote has a much larger psychological impact here on steemit than an up vote. This appears to be tied to the monetary aspect of the site being a force multiplier on the psyche." -Money again is at the root of a problem lol

Great article, @dwinblood, and I loved the photographs - especially the shiney "NEW!" sign! XD

I was once flagged by a rather large account after my post had made a bit of money and in one fell swoop my post had gone invisible by the singular downvote. My post was an original video of me reviewing a product. I messaged the individual who downvoted me and tried to reason with them, and it came out that he literally just did not like the video. I tried to ask why to try and create more quality content that everyone may enjoy in the future and they stopped replying.

Sometimes rational discussion goes nowhere...then what? lol

Sometimes rational discussion goes nowhere...then what? lol

Human nature. Yes, it won't always work. Yet we must still make the attempt.

Also changing a persons mind is not instantaneous (or rarely so). You have no way of knowing if what you said planted a seed that took time to make sense to them and some time down the road you may have changed them in some way.

I absolutely agree that every time the effort should be put forth to be civil, but at the point of which they continue in such a way that is divisive what do we do?

And you're right, I'd never thought about the fact that I could have "planted a seed." Change often does take time.

at the point of which they continue in such a way that is divisive what do we do?

What you can. Yet don't drop to their level. Act like the person you'd hope other people would be like. Don't sully yourself due to their intractable nature.

And you're right, I'd never thought about the fact that I could have "planted a seed." Change often does take time.

I think in any controversial subject or where you have someone acting in defense of their beliefs it almost always takes time. The cases where it does not are actually pretty rare.

I like the analogy in relation to downvoting, when you go to a store you buy things you like or need and don't break stuff so others can not buy it anymore. Also is there a relation to the downvoting system where people with higher reputation have more power to downvote than others in relation to the upcomming Hardfork 19? Or doesn't that have any relation to each other?

Reputation is purely a WEBSITE side feature of steemit.com. It is not actually part of the blockchain. So if you were say on busy.org or another blockchain viewing website the reputation system may or may not do anything. Since it is not actually implemented in the blockchain it really has no impact on how you vote. It is basically a cosmetic FIX for the Steemit.com website.

Right, that makes it clear enough. Thank you

It is interesting to consider where it will go, whats in store for SteemIt as we grow?

There will be good times and bad times. This is unavoidable and is an aspect of life, and human nature.

Great Post @dwinblood ! I agree with your premise and reasoning. I liked the approach and introduction to the main problem on steemit basically being aimed at new people to steem, and also a reminder to all that yes, there is an elephant in the room and we can do only one thing about, use civility and reasoning for dispute resolution. Everyone must remember the entire legal systems of the world were originally established for one reason, Dispute Resolution ! Personally I believe in the Non Aggression Principle, where civility, reasoning and conversation is first and foremost in a dispute resolution situation. As you have said to new people and to all, I say also, There is in fact an Elephant in the room which we have yet to be able come to a resolution, but how we personally deal with this problem is what, I believe in the end will contribute to a positive resolution.
In other words, Don't be a jerk just because someone else is !

Read More, Reason More ... JTS

Important topic, but I can not really come up with any approach to solve the problem.

I am in favor of the different power of accounts, even tho this could be a little more balanced (wasn't a future fork supposed to do that?). It prevents a lot of shady methods like spam creating accounts. I also think people who invested more time and money on Steemit deserve to have more influence.

I also never seen an unfair downvote. Bernie downvoted a comment of mine, but I essentially called him a racist, so it was not unjustified. I have seen some justified downvotes for tag abuse and identity theft and I thought it is kind of cool, that everybody has some sort of policing power, well at least if you got Steem Power.
As a new User I can ofc see how frustrating it can be to have your account be invisible and unprofitable after you put a lot of energy into it to get going.

I can only offer the centralized approach of having some sort of Steem Police, similar to trails or even more like witnesses, but with the official power that every downvote has to be double checked by them to be effective, to make sure it is not just a bully downvote. But there are also a ton of problems with this solution, mainly the potential abuse of power and corruption. So yeah....

Bernie downvoted a comment of mine, but I essentially called him a racist, so it was not unjustified. I have seen some justified downvotes for tag abuse and identity theft and I thought it is kind of cool, that everybody has some sort of policing power, well at least if you got Steem Power.

It's hard to say. I don't know if he is as active at it as he was. I know he was auto-flagging anything stellabelle wrote recently or so she claimed to me, though I noticed some of her stuff was not flagged. I'm not sure, and didn't really look into it. Bernie has the potential to do great good and great harm. I simply hope he comes out on the balance of doing good, and I am optimistic that he will.

As to solution... it will not be easy. I wasn't actually asking for a solution.

I was more or less just going over the situation for the benefit of all the new people.

It is probably the biggest BLEMISH/FLAW in the system at the moment. Yet, we haven't really come up with a solution.

I wasn't actually asking for a solution.

If I see a problem I start thinking about solutions, does not matter if I am asked to or not ;)

To be fair I had a rather unpleasant convo with Stella, I like her and had some good talks with her before, but I really hate passive aggressiveness.

Yeah, I don't always agree with Stella either. She's written some things I strongly disagreed with. Yet I won't follow her around flagging her. She has also written pieces I strongly agreed with.

I actually will NEVER flag a piece because I dislike it. I'll only flag spam, plagiarism, and abuse. In such cases I'd likely negotiate with the person before flagging.

I very much dislike the flag. I prefer the market approach myself.

I know you do, but I think the fear of downvotes helps Steemit. Flagging for disagreeing or other reasons is a shameful act and I would personally never do it, but we have to live with people doing it or we need actual police, imo.

Yep, they are going to do it.

Then our job is to try to convince them to hopefully change their ways. We simply cannot expect them to say "Gee you're right" and instantly change. That likely won't happen. We however may influence them in ways that over time could lead to change.

I like your problem solving method of just focusing on what you actually can do and being very conscious of what is outside of your agency to change. Just keep adding positive to the world and pay attention to the things you like whilst ignoring the things you don't. Steem on, amigo!

What is an elephant in your room

It is a euphemism. Sorry I forget some people not from my part of the world may be unfamiliar with the term.

It is essentially hinting at the concept that there is something REALLY BIG in the room with you, but everyone is trying to pretend it is not there. They act like they don't notice it.

The Elephant in the room basically refers to that.

I am one with the STEEM and one WITH the FORCE

To be honest, it's difficult for me to understand your article, because of the small knowledge of English, but it seems to me that I understood the main thing ... Do you want to make life better ...? ...)

The main purpose of the article was to point out that steemit is combining too types of environments that have not been combined before. How you VOTE in such environments is different. They don't exactly go together smoothly. So if you see down votes, don't get angry and attack. If you believe the down vote is not deserved then discuss it rationally and with civility with the person who down voted.

Other than that yes "Do you want to make life better" also could be part of what I wrote. :)

Thank you, I will try to improve my English)

It's not a problem. I am glad you are here. I can get VERY wordy. That can be hard for many people that speak English as their native language. For someone who does not I imagine it can be quite challenging.

I'm also glad that I'm here)
everything will be fine))

jerks can be found anywhere and it is not easy to ration with them. In my opinion, a post should be flagged only if it is flagged by a specified amount of the post's viewers.

People have actually proposed this before. It is something worth trying.

it is not easy to ration with them

This is true. Though there are a lot of NOT EASY things. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try. :)

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