RE: Self voting will now NOT be default steemit.com behaviour
Self-voting doesn't add value to the network!
Great work @l0k1 and @personz and everyone behind this!
I stand behind you for this as I believe that self voting isn't standing for what steemit stands for. Steemit should be about adding great value instead of massive content, and self-voting doesn't add any value what so ever.
Punishing the top self-voting comments to the extent that they are loosing what they would earn from that vote is a good way to do it. As many point out, the comment can be good enough to deserv any possible earnings, but they shouldn't gain any benefit from voting on it by themselves.
Voting should be for finding other great content, not for self-voting.
And no, it's not hard to make a second account
But you need to lock your steem in some way on either account, so it will be more costly to do it this way. You will need to sacrifice some of your curation power if you do it this way, cause the SP you lock in your self voting account could have been in your own account making you a more powerful curator.
You sure about that?
Self voting on an average of 1 post per day was how i paid to have whaleshares built.
This is like telling a miner...he cannot mine tokens for him or herseld and that u and the community will take away mining rights as soon as they get jealous. Meanwhile there re real problems...like sock puppet accounts that upvote everything from a distance.
Something tells me people wont care.
Also...what about people who are witnesses AND post. Maybe since they are earning sp from being witnesses...we just make it so they cant make money from blogging...cause how is it right they get to double dip?
See how easily this can get out of hand?
Well, I still think that a post/comment should be rewarded based on its value to the community. If people vote on it, it obviously have value to the community. Earning shares from the pool because you're a wealthy entity isn't what I think is good practice.
Sure, the issue has been very much more pressing since the rewards curve was flattened and the power per vote increased.
I understand your view to. But one full vote per day isn't the same as just using all your votes for voting on yourself, which is what I think is pure wrong. And there is, as you point out, more issues as sock puppet accounts to. I will reflect on this some more 👍
I hear you man. Thanks for your reflections as well!
You're a supporter of the community and I know you're using it for good. Maybe I should have larger trust in the greater whole? Self voting is a way to earn, but it's contradictory to what I think steemit stands for.
We need to discuss it more though
Maybe you're interested some day.
The ability to self-vote absolutely adds value to the system. Specifically, it makes the Steem token more valuable. People want to own the token, and will pay good money for it, in part because they can self-vote their content and thereby gain more influence and a larger voice within the Steem community. Steem was never meant to be "fair". Rather it was meant to reward holders of SP with INFLUENCE, thereby increasing demand for Steem and raising its market value. Deny SP holders this influence and all you will do is diminish the desirability and value of the Steem token itself. That's short sighted.
Yes, SP designed to reward holders with influence, and for their investment to appreciate over time. But this appreciation comes at the cost of the other purpose of Steem which you have not mentioned - distributing rewards to other members, not yourself. Every token that someone allocates to themselves is necessarily not allocated socially. Steem is not simply an interest deposit where you can post any old thing and self vote to get your "dues".
Increasing the value of the Steem token is not a simple cause and effect, it's complex. There are a lot of people bringing up the concern that self voting is in fact scammy behavior and this might actually go against adoption and the value of the coin.
Nobody is proposing to deny SP holders influence, it's pretty much gospel here. But letting their influence increase too much is not the goal either.
@sean-king You're so unbelievably wrong. Buying STEEM makes the token more valuable. Having SP gives you the ability to earn curation rewards. That's how the platform was intended. It was intended to be fair, as in that everyone would be making money.
If you are self-voting, everyone is making less money and it becomes less "fair". The more people self-vote, the less people will earn, until everybody is earning hardly anything and the price of STEEM will drop like there's no tomorrow. It's as simple as that.
And why do you think people buy Steem, friend? Just so that they can upvote OTHER PEOPLE'S stuff with more influence? NO! They often buy Steem because owning Steem ensures that their own content gets more exposure.
Steem was NEVER intended to be "fair" (read the whitepaper since it's quite explicit on this point, analogizing Steem to a "lottery"), and it most DEFINITELY wasn't intended to be a place where "everyone would be making money." Again, read the whitepaper! Steem can't afford to produce enough tokens to reward everybody "fairly". If it did, the system would be flooded with tokens, and those tokens would be relatively worthless. Instead, Steem was designed to pay huge, outsized rewards to a few lucky people. And it's the HOPE of earning one of those outsized rewards (and not a "fair" distribution of those rewards) that keeps people posting, just like the HOPE of winning the lottery (and not a "fair" distribution of winnings) keeps people buying tickets. Again, read the freakin whitepaper.
People acquire Steem in part so that they CAN upvote themselves and get more exposure, just like advertisers acquire air time so that they can likewise get more exposure. Airtime is limited and desired because it gives influence, and STeem is limited and desired becasue it gives influence. Therefore airtime is valuable and Steem is valuable.
Imagine a system where people who purchased airtime could ONLY advertise OTHER PEOPLE'S products and not their own. Would airtime be as valuable as now? Of course not. The value of airtime would decline greatly b/c people are not all that altruistic. They are not going to spend their hard-earned money only to provide exposure for someone else.
This is not even a hard question, man. It's really quite simple. Depriving Steem holders of the right to self vote is the equivalent of depriving purchasers of advertising the right to advertise their own products. It's insane, and it will kill the price of Steem.
Agreed
+1
totally
That's a good point, I hear you.
I feel the need for it to be more openly discussed, this is good.
I'm mearly expressing my view in my previous post, but my view may change as I discuss this topic. Nothing is fixed.
Thanks for your view of it, I need to think on this more 😀
I agree with you. I hope you and I are both wrong. :)
That's right, the extra effort isn't the only cost, the spreading of SP around will also diminish the benefits. But people so often don't think more than one step ahead with anything, or to the secondary outcomes after a primary outcome. This is the result of humans short lifespans and is called 'Time Preference' in Austrian economics. The effect it has on behaviour here is unquestionable, and that is why the defaults need to be changed.
BTW, I voted for your witness with @l0k1, keep up the good work :)
I disagree with the term "punishing" but yes, letting our opposition be known and felt is the idea 😄
Thanks for the support!
To be honest this was more effective under the square rewards curve, and I think the reason @ats-david previously suggested actually rolling back hard fork 19. I'm going to consider the multiple accounts argument more. It was something we explicitly said was outside the scope of the project but it's becoming clear to me that support for this project may be contingent on an answer to this too.
Fully agree. Maybe punishing isn't the word, but at least set a statement.
This issue has arrised much more after the new rewards curve system AND a higher voting power. Many smaller witnesses where pointing this out.