No More Fear on Self-voting!steemCreated with Sketch.

in #steem8 years ago

In every reward system in Steem, self-voting is one of the main concern and the devs attempt to discourage self-voting or group-self-voting(a.k.a. collusive-voting) through reward distribution curve design. But is the self-voting truly fearsome disaster? Does penalizing self-voting have disadvantages as well? This post will delve into the self-voting issue in a brief way.

Problem of Self-voting

The worst scenario with self-voting is all users voting only for themselves. This implies that decision-making on contents is neglected. In other words, it's no more than PoS system; staking STEEM (as Steem Power) and earning interests via self-voting.

Overcoming Fear on Self-voting

But is it really bad, especially in linear-based system? Assuming everyone is doing self-voting, a person who is holding 10% Steem Power will earn approximately 10% of contents rewards. If one is holding 1%, he/she will get 1%, and 50% will get 50%. It is literally selfish, but a self-voter doesn't over-use his/her power more than one owns.

Point 1: In a linear system, self-voting does not have more impacts than one owns

Secondly, self-voting can be punished by downvote from others. To fully utilize voting power, a self-voter needs to vote several or tens of times per day for him or his sock-puppets. This increases probability of being detected and if one is really trying to abuse the voting power, the person will face severe backlash soon.

Point 2: Self-voting can be detected and punished

Anti-self-voting can be Anti-dolphin or Anti-minnow

Currently, the way to discourage self-voting is applying discount to piled voting power on posts. For instance, if a post received 10,000 MV will get 5% discount, but a post with 100 MV will get 90% discount. By doing so, people are more likely to vote on same posts in order to increase their curation rewards. While it appears sound, the height of bar matters.

Let's assume that a generally acceptable discount level is 10% and 5,000 MV is required to reach this stage. In other words, this means a post with below 5,000 MV is considered as self- or collusive-voting. Here, please remind that there is no other reason to discount voting power except discouraging self-voting. Therefore, the bar generates a kind of Type II error (A hypothesis is true but incorrectly reject it due to too strict criteria. A false negative). For instance, a post is voted by thrity 100 MV dolphins (3,000 MV), who are not self-voters. It actually is not self-voting post but will get significant discount due to the high bar (e.g. 5,000 MV). Therefore, higher anti-self-voting policy can give penalties to non-abusing posts. This results in weakening dolphins and minnows. Unless several tens of them vote for one post, they cannot make it beyone-discount level without whale's help

Point 3: Higher anti-self-voting policy can weaken dolphins and minnows

In addition, a higher bar brings about fewer posts that have non-significant discounts. This is able to help for-profit bots(I am using a term bot for convenience, but I am neutral on it). More specifically, for-profit bots only will focus on small number of authors who have higher probability of creating beyond-discount posts. A reverse auction can make difference, but if the gap from discount is considerably greater than loss from the auction, bots don't care. For example, an author produces 5,000 MV(10% discount) posts on average, and another author produces 1,000 MV(80% discount) posts, bots can compensate losses from the reverse auction from the difference in discount levels (80%-10% = 70%). But if the gap of discounts is only 10%, bots may get more rewards by taking advantages in the reverse auction.

Point 4: Stricter anti-self-voting policy helps bots

Current and Suggestion

Currently, the bar seems too high. According to the suggested parameters, 8,000 MV is required to reach 80% level and 20,000 MV for 90% level. I would suggest to decrease the bar to like 500~1,000 MV for 80% and 2,000~3,000 MV for 90%. This is more fair to dolphins and minnows as well as will make Steemit more dynamic (more randomness on beyond-discount posts). Don't afraid of self-voting. Just let it go and enjoy your voting power. This is what we should aim.

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I actually have a bot that upvotes my posts after 30 minutes and I might change that to 23 hours and I do that simply because I have the option to upvote my own posts. Frankly, I don't know that it's harmful because I try not to publish junk and I don't feel like I abuse the system because I limit my posts to no more than 4 times a day - and even a 4-post day is rare for me.

This may be sadly ignorant but I don't know enough about the system to even think about gaming it. I just write content and share my random thoughts. But I am also very active in voting content, leaving comments, and helping the newer Steemians who might be struggling.

As a low-level dolphin, I still upvote 100% on posts. Honestly, I think the slider is crap and completely inappropriate to anyone less than 100m vests. I don't know if that is even considered as part of the equation but maybe it's something to think about?

The slide is UI issue and @liondani proposed ideas before.

Agree and further I'm not even convinced by the 500-1000 MV level being low enough. 500 MV is a 25000 USD account. That's way out of reach for most users. I would target something much lower like 50-100 MV, or just forget it, use 0 MV, and let anyone selfvote if they want. IMO people who aren't interested in the system or don't see enough value in the content and want to selfvote would otherwise just sell and leave. Let them opt out of paying rewards, especially if it isn't done in a blatantly abusive manner (in which case it can be downvoted). There is no gain from it.

Good post but already high reward. I gave 1% upvote

Agree. Surprisingly, x can be the best and simplest solution.

Yeah I couldn't get out of that account worth= 1 dollar for a month at least. It took me 4 months to make a 0.001 curation reward :D on a post that made 150 and I voted on way early. And I also think investors and power holders should be rewarded based on the increase in value of the commodity, not be "employed" by the system taking half of the profits each day(just throwing some numbers around).

So use that 50k to start a business then link that to steem and recieve the benefits from running both a business and a blockhain support, make a revenue and have a bonus steem just in case, at least you can always fall back on that, of course some stability in the price would be expected for that to happen.

It can't fluctuate from 4 to .1 in a year. What can you build from that a plane crash?

It might work out in a year or more, but it's just hopes :|

A plug for @thirsty and @senseiteekay :) Whales please support them, he's a great guy and trying his best to make something new and really in the interest of many

And I'm starting to question the validity of "stocks" and "markets" since profits seem to be made on the fluctuations and the shattering of dreams :D a constantly rising stock seems like a impossible thing to make with all the interests and politics. Keeping the world in conflict seems like a normal way to run things since without problems there would be no need for figures of power.

Actually, I take only Steem Power for my posts for the very reason I wish to increase my curation earning power...and voting for my own post is part and parcel of that strategy. I have been here since July 2016 and have taken nothing out. I am banking on Steemit surviving and becoming a viable social media platform where I can blog and make some money while doing what I enjoy.

I wish to increase my curation earning power...and voting for my own post is part and parcel of that strategy

Sounds like a terrible strategy :-) Unless you believe your posts are more likely to be upvoted by whales...

{sob}...is the ONLY strategy I have {considers slitting wrists... decides against it}..thanks for the comment though @snowflake :)

OMG - I laughed because it's pretty much the only strategy I have too. LOL

But please don't also slit your wrists... it's pretty sore and quite a mes to clean up {sulk}

I don't see any harm in self-voting as it's a choice for authors when posting. They might as well acknowledge own posts..compared to 100 votes with 1% voting power. If i can vote 60-100% to other members' post, surely it's my choice to vote for my posts 100% with the time i spend making one.

The real self-voting problem is that I could write a bot that posts 40 empty posts per day, votes for all of them, and skims a bit of reward all day long while providing no benefit to the system.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't be voting on your own stuff; we just want to make sure you aren't incentivized to upvote your own spam. :)

There's no real "reward" from that was clayop's point. You are just maintaining your share of stake, not increasing. Maybe it would be better to offer an opt out "investor class" shares which don't pay rewards, can't vote, and don't earn anything. That way people who want to just invest (and support the value of the token which helps everyone) can opt out without needing to spam 40 votes on the chain. I think it is worth considering.

sounds like a good idea :) I was thinking along those lines too banking should be viable and supporting the growth outside of the platform should be incentivized. Staying just so you can spread your daily pool to combat the "inflation" being spread to everyone doesn't seem that appealing, however you've earned that "Power" being stuck with it seems like it's a bit of a let down. No wonder the price is dropping when it's a sin to use the tokens provided and do something with them apart from trading them.

I'm expecting steemit to pick back up when the currency becomes viable not only for curation but for normal spread of value and transfers. Currently the only people supporting comments are a few dolphins and a few whales. Many have expressed their opinions that the currency should be used for shopping and such, currently it's underdeveloped for use in anyplace outside of this closed of ecosystem.

The best thing is either a upvote from abit or a transfer from some of the others earners around here. Games seem to not work that well for long and nobody cares for playing when they can make money gaming systems and people. So good luck steem health fishes can't feed themselves.

I have to add that the narrative of bad whales and whatever is a bit harmful, do the actions from steemed seem like a conspiracy and a way to drain the pool, sure but to him it's justified based on what he thinks dan and other have done to put themselves well off on the top.

I'm still piecing things together haven't gotten to the mining part. I just know this platform is worth much more than it's used for and even then right now it's worth less than what it is supposed to. 5k active people is a small amount, we are like a small town or a big village at this stage.

Cheers mate :) and cheers to abit once again I'm off this thread :D

let us know what you figure out lol

oh a bot ok..i don't know much about those :)

Sure, but people have been caught scheming and colluding, now the accounts are powering down and off they go. @ SteeMED @ itsascam @ steemroller and whatnot, sure it was caused by some growing discontent I suppose and some hate for dan the man :D It's interesting to see the accounts still active and curating for themselves I suppose, check the steemd same time of votes, same posts, for rewards :|

A bit complicated for me ;)

https://steemd.com/@immarojas steemit/steemdb all work and you can change the name after the @ to check other profiles of in the case of steemd you can see the site and the blockhain as it is happening, so how much is the daily pool, the new posts and such,

there are other sites like http://steemitx.com/ if you want to be notified but I'm still thinking of weather I should use that and how to make it viable and easy

https://steem-ganymede.herokuapp.com/ is a nice app still learning it too

and https://steemviz.com/ is a great way to "enter the matrix" :P

Thank you! What does 'enter the matrix' mean? Will i find keanu there?

if you get the code :D

there was another scene, but this one is good enough, I'm just joking around trying to twist some minds :D

Steemit is the matrix :D you're already here on the digital frontier

I'm guessing I've watched too many movies and I have to spread that viral virus to other people :|

Enter TRON :D next stop :D

That movie makes no sense tho, the matrix is within the matrix and I don't get it by the end of it because the main character dies combating and making the matrix better in the end ?! :D

Lolsss that is so true..you could say that, how bout us illiterate?? Am glad somebody is having fun ;)

Wow...first day here and you are really helping me out thank you j3dy

It doesn't harm at all unless one write garbage and upvote it :)

that can happen lolssss

really, self-voting is bad. according to me, that is even a bit unthinkable. why wouldn't anyone want to self-vote his creation. it is only normal that someone would even if there was no earning involved!

The real self-voting problem is that I could write a bot that posts 40 empty posts per day, votes for all of them, and skim a bit of reward all day long while providing no benefit to the system.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't be voting on your own stuff; we just want to make sure you aren't incentivized to upvote your own spam. :)

Look if it is spam someone who cares might downvote it. If no one cares, then what is the harm?

You can't force people to pay what they don't want to pay and don't see the value of, in a voluntary system. They will just sell, which helps no one. One look at the price action over most of the past year and we see this effect in action.

Look if it is spam someone who cares might downvote it. If no one cares, then what is the harm?

Exactly. And people will care a lot if it takes a significant amount of the reward pool, the content would get downvoted quickly.
When plagiarism gets upvoted a lot and suddently people realize it was actually stolen work they are very quick to downvote, I've seen it happens dozens of times. The community can police itself we don't need no babycurvesitters.

babycurvesitters lol

I would like to see minnows excempt from that self voting principle, then their curation rewards will grow at least, also a cap on the power would be useful or something along those lines, I'm not sure what has been discussed before since I'm sure it has been before(5-6 months ago)

I also like the idea of smooth for that investor class, but much like what you've proposed @ the guardians, I don't like class systems, and I wouldn't want rewards removed and another class that you have to buy into.

It's a shame it would take years to get to where other have placed themselves in a few months.

Sure the developers have built a system and all but placing themselves out of reach and being viewed like dieties by some won't help anyone.

What would be the point of this system if it's just banked crypto that does nothing and support nobody.

Curation should be fun for everyone, investors should be well off for their early push and developers should sooner or later move on to some other ideas, having this platform as a side income, where they can always be supported for the many opportunities given to the many people making a living and transferring wealth between themselves.

So yeah keep the rat maze I guess see where it leads :D
(Steemit experiment must go on :D )

Is it really necessary? can it change anything in reality :P can it make us better as humans, that is what steemit should be, not a dead forum with posts nobody reads for profits everybody's chasing and putting their thumbs up their arse, some quality shakesperian poetry there :D

Yeah I do agree it seems all the profits made by the platform are already "off-shored" 10mil in income and 30mil sold I was very mindfucked by that, can't remember where I saw that but It was available on the steemtools for sure.

If you do that your posts will get instantly downvoted and you will be labelled as 'troll' and you will probably end up on cheetah's blacklist too.

The ideal-world GT solution to this problem is to make sure your potential curation rewards for reading and voting on good content outweigh the money you would make by self voting.

Alternatively, if you were lazy, the second line of defensse would be others dv-ing your 40 emmpty posts when they see you up to no good.

woah, is it that extensive. gosh i didnt know. woah, that one is an issue! i didnt know the bots wrote posts too, even if empty!

There have been bots that wrote entire articles, and got upvoted to the front page. The articles were nonsense, but they looked good enough to some whales who did not seem to be paying proper attention.

shocking amazing. thank you for highlighting!

just self-voting wasn't what they were concerned about when they created n^2. They were worried about people exclusively voting for their own content. Why "spend" your vote on someone elses content when you can post 40 times a day and pay yourself by upvoting your own posts.

selfvote away, but think of others too, your 0.1 cent vote might do someone else more good than your self pat on the back. Other people can help you out more and push you harder than you can plus, it's easier to fall from a pile of cash than to gather one acting solely in your self interest, taking your "fair share" monopoly style, Sorry for using words given a bad ring( I hate that fair share speech )

So yeah I would like to see a free market economy based on social value and truth grow from here, but it's a bit of a stretch for now :D

The assumption seems to be (at least the one in the white paper and some of the discussion of the curve for HF17) that in the absence of significant penalties for most users for self voting, everyone would just self-vote.

Personally, im not entirely convinced that this is the case. especially with the potential for curation rewards.

I don't think the assumption is true too. That's a hypothetical extreme case, but never happens.

I am confused by this. I am trying to do the correct thing for this platform to survive. I don't use bots to vote, but when I started on this platform I read posts from people who were here before I started that basically said it was a wise strategy to upvote yourself. I have always done this and I always put 100% of what I have earned into steem power which I thought was to help the platform to survive. If this isn't the case, then I need to stop immediately.

Self-upvote is your right. I do too. But I don't self-vote when I think my post isn't worth much (e.g. small talk, daily joke, etc.). And others will decide on your post too, so no worries!

Thanks for your reply @clayop. I'm never sure..(even with 6 months under my belt), if I am doing everything properly or if I've missed something vital.
What you have said makes sense to me.

where is bernie when you need him :D also smooth missed out on some flags by the witness, it's a bit stupid I agree with both of them since they have a point, the "guild" is shady at best, and the developers have the most power as it seems, I still need more time to make sense out of all this, and it seems like its' always piling up more and more :|

Nice! Here I was all afraid and stuff. Thank you for the much needed 411 and peace of mind.

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