Do you think Palnet "holds no value" and disagree with minnowsupport bot?
Recently, I learned that some Korean users, including myself, were downvoted by users that they do not know. I didn't really know why that happened.
And several hours ago, I found that @whatsup and @tarazkp left replies after downvoting.
First of all, thank you for leaving your opinions so that now I can see where it comes from.
I have close to zero communication experience with @tarazkp, but from his high reputation(77) I assume that he has been around for a long time. All I can tell him is that I believe that it is inappropriate to "attack"(downvote) others if you yourself even are not sure what/why you are doing ("very limited understanding", if I use a direct quote.)
Now @whatsup 's reply.
Let's start with this part: "the token which has no real value"
So you are saying that SCT has no value. What is your reason?
SCT is the community token for steemcoinpan, one of the earliest steem-engine based communities. And it is also one of the most successful community so far, based on tag usage, user activities, market cap, transaction volume, etc.
Following your logic, I would say that palnet is also "the token has no real value". And I learned that you yourself use the palnet tag too. Let me ask you this question:
What is the difference between palnet and sct? is it only because you know people in palnet and don't know people in sct?
Second part: "having people bid with SCT token to receive large steem votes"
Okay. It seems that you do not like "steem engine bid bots" that accept steem engine token and bid. It is your preference and I understand that people may have different thoughts.
But have you applied the same criteria to other bid bots, including palnet bid bot (@minnowsupport), steemleo bot (@steem.leo), etc.?
- As far as I know, no. You have not downvoted these bot users. Seems inconsistent.
- Update: it seems that some users do not even know what are being discussed.
This is a screenshot from https://steembottracker.com/
sct.voter accepts SCT (steemcoinpan token)
minnowsupport accepts PAL (palnet token)
The only difference is the symbol: structure is the same.
Oh, and one more difference - the amount of steem power that the project supporters delegated to the bot.
I would like to know how steem engine tribe people, including @aggroed and @yabapmatt, regarding this issue.
I believe that downvoting on postings merely based on the fact that they have used steem engine token bid bots will
Discourage steem engine tribe community participation, which would reduce steemit community participation at the same time.
Negative effect on steem prices as some users may feel disappointed of them receiving downvotes and choose not to power-up or even power down.
I seldom write in English as I mostly communicate with kr(Korean) users. But for this issue, I should use English.
한국어 버전은 별도로 포스팅하겠습니다. Korean version of this article will be posted separately.
It doesn't matter what the SCT token does, but once voting is coming out of the STEEM pool at these levels it will attract attention and these posts are hitting the trending sections and that will attract more attention - that is the idea of attracting votes at that level. Once in the attention, people are going to scrutinize it. What I have found is that the Korean community so far seems to have not been paying attention to what has been happening on Steem at all which is fine, but those on Steem have been.
The downvotes can be for disagreement of rewards or, disagreements of bidbot usage or disagreement of using a random token to buy large Steem votes or any number of reasons, but it is up to the community to decide where the Steem is directed. The tribes can do as they please with their own tokens, as it should be.
Does the SCT token hold value if there was no STEEM votes available? It seems that this might not be the case considering that they are being swapped out for Steem votes instead of being held as valuable tokens in themselves on their native platform.
What I am glad about is that there is more discussion around these things now as the other bidbots have been reduced to the point activity that has laid hidden can be seen. Thanks for taking the time to write in English too, it is appreciated.
This point you wrote actually is an excellent point of measure for any DAPPs or Tokens. I'm not addressing to SCT specific but to general. Thank you for the valuable comment.
I think in order to be a truly successful dapp or token, it needs to hold value on its own. Steemmonters and their cards is an excellent example.
Yes it is as it stands on its own two feet and provides a use case that has utility without requiring a Steem vote for attraction.
Superb!!
I don't want to get too involved in this whole conversation, but I just wanted to comment that the converse of the above is also true - that the rest of the Steem community seems to not pay attention to what's going on in the Korean community, and I think that is also a big mistake. The Korean community seems to be one of the largest on the platform in terms of stake, and I suspect that without their support STEEM would be doing far worse than it already is. In fact, from what I understand Steemit, Inc specifically has really dropped the ball in Korea over the past year or so and I think that has contributed heavily to STEEMs huge price decline relative to other cryptocurrencies.
Yes, but as I have found through @jayplayco, most of their interaction other than voting seems to be off Steem and in chat groups, leaving much of the content graveyards to collect votes other than be part of communities. When it comes to the voting of much of that stake, it is "tight-knit" to say the least with one of the largest accounts only voting on itself and alts until very recently after downvote pressure.
While everyone can do as they please with their own stake, once it enters onto a post with Steem on it, for seven days the final allocation is under negotiation. There is so much value in the Korean community that they could be onboarding locally with and increasing their own worth, yet as I have been told, the Korean community is shrinking. From what I understood (google translated), at least some didn't even know there was a hardfork that changed the economics.
Price decline is one thing of course, but I don't think keeping staked users who are not interested in developing even their own community growth is really the way to go for a long-term successful platform.
It depends how you see it, as I personally see also that the international community had been doing the same, as much of the communication had been done on Discord and not on Steem. As I am mentionend here, you may remember that a lot of the talk with me had also happened as DM on discord and not on the blockchain. It is simliar. If you go back in history, the tag KR had been the third active tag on the Steem blochchain for a long time. SCT is the second highest tag in the moment. ZZAN, which is also a Korean Tribe is the 11th tag, so you may see that the activity on the chain itself is for the portion of the KR community still very high, but just not visible (due to the UI of Steemit and language barrier). It is just that much of the direct communication have moved more into chat channels.
The Korean community was never really big, compared to the whole Steem community. The biggest difference in the KR community is only that almost every single user is and was heavily invested into Steem. It comes from the beginning when users introduced Steem to other KR users and the main underlying advise was, if you want to grow on Steem, buy it. As an example, I have started with 700 Steem for 2K USD and proportionally increased that. Not the KR community only, but Korea itself as a country is still making about 25% of the daily worldwide volume of Steem, but it was normally on a level of 50%, especially when the daily volume increased (which means that the price increased) If you look into the data of coinmarketcap you will find the dependency on the KR market for the Steem price is at least at a level of 55-60%, partly 70% when we see an increase in the Steem price.
I think that needs to be corrected and more people outside of Korea should buy and stake Steem.
Yes, that may be true, but it is one thing to know the technical implementation of an hardfork and another thing how the community will react on that. I have been informing the community about the effects of EIP and how the Steem community is moving on, but as normal you can't reach everybody.
I have now long term Steem users from the KR community contacting me directly that they are going to give up on Steem and moving on, or are shortly before that. That may sound not really dramatic, but these users have been investing in 6to 7 figure USD into the Steem economy. I know that a lot of people say that is great, so people can buy in cheap, but as every single coin economy, if you lose the whales the minnows will not be able to fill that place. We will have to find other whales replacing them.
I have personally moved my really little Steem from the exchange (compared to all the other KR users) and powered it up yesterday to show that I believe in the system, but it is only a drop on top of the hot stone. Even if the "honest voting" movement itself is legit, the way how it was and is done, without communicating directly with the people and understanding the consequences is unfortunate. The Korean community may be small from the number, but due to the specific way (due starting steem with investment) how they have approached Steem, the thinking has been formed differently. This kind of investments also had developed the growth of Steem, except that only a few recognized it. It comes due to the fact that there are language barriers (which is the same reason that the international community does not care or understand what happens within the KR community). Yabab knows about the effect the KR community has, as he is running Steemmonsters and know the numbers KR has invested into SM.
I am therefore happy that these kind of communications are happening and hope that we can form the community as we like without loosing all investors or at least having a plan how to find new ones.
It seems that the fact that sct brought more than 1 million steems to power up and hence supported steem prices is consistently ignored.
But your second point deserves more attention. I believe that SCT is much better than steem (and market prices so far confirms it) and it may do much better on other blockchain, but for now it is using steem blockchain network so not independent.
Hello,
Okay, I worded that poorly... Palnet and yes, the SCT may hold value at some point. But creating a bot that gives out large Steem votes when you pay with another token devalues Steem in my opinion.
You make many great points. Yes, I do apply the same logic to the other bidbots that give out LARGE Steem votes. I am unconcerned about tiny votes.
Focusing more on SteemMonsters and SCT which are the only ones that I have noticed giving out noticeably large votes.
I'd be happy to discuss if you think I am misunderstanding something.
Thanks for the English post for discussion.
Thank you very much for your reply. I hope we can use this opportunity to enhance mutual understanding of the issue.
Now I understand that you feel uncomfortable that these votes are "large".
As far as I know, examples of steemmonsters and SCT- they are large as more users (in terms of steem powers) support the project.
I thought that if the project may gather more steem power to support it, it is better both for steem and the project. But I may be wrong.
So what is your suggestion of solving this issue? For example, who would, and how we can decide which amount is "large"?
A $27 dollar upvote in exchange for some SCT tokens to me does seem large on one post that ends up on trending and although the translation tool are rough, didn't really appear to be anything special.
Regarding solving it, there is no hostility involved and in comparison my vote is tiny. Your group can just ignore them since the vote is likely still profitable, although I do wish your group would consider how that impacts Steem and how it feels to other content creators.
Hm, so how much would be okay? $20? $10? And who will make the decision and would people agree on that?
Alternative of converting SCT token to cash, instead of using it for voting is exchange sct to steem and sell it. Since voting makes 50% of reward staked, I believe that it is better for steem as well.
Your downvote alone might not be critical in terms of dollar values, but the more important point is that you are one of the opinion leaders and lots of users rely on your opinion, as far as I know.
My opinion is that it brings value to the SCT token, via Steem. It's hard to imagine how that helps anyone but SCT users. I don't have any opinion on the value of SCT nor do I know what it does for Steem. So, I have no intent to be negative about the token.
Not sure that there is a place where we need agreement. I think it devalues Steem to give out that large of a vote in exchange for SCT tokens.
Regarding the decision each person will use their DVs as they wish hence no agreement is necessary nor is there one person who makes the decision.
I don't want to see trending filled with posts that hold little value except for a purchased vote. I think that currently is the mood/opinion of many within the community.
Had the bidbots owners been better actors in who could buy a vote and for what purpose, I don't think the response would be as harsh.
I'm not sure you and I need to come to agreement on this, as I think it is unlikely I will create a huge downvote train on your community.
I appreciate the discussion by the way, as I think many of us are still experimenting with what adds value and what does not.
Okay. So what you are saying is that
"I do not want to see postings on trending that I think not really good"
"I think certain amounts are too much, but I do not have a specific rule"
I agree that you may act as you want. But that also means that you should be okay with you getting downvotes, for example from sct.voter, for whatever reason, including "I think your post has too much reward."
Did I understand correctly?
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 $0.032을 보팅해서 $0.008을 살려드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 6530번 $74.522을 보팅해서 $84.847을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
Sure if you want to downvote my content for any reason that is your right as a stake holder.
My issue is that the vote is purchased with SCT tokens.
Thank you for the reply. I don't think I am going to downvote (and my sp is not big anyway) - just wanted to know your thoughts on the issue.
De-centralized, non-goverened: Everybody acts how they want, thus creating consensus.
It only starts to be distorted by greed (=buying huge votes).
Everybody has their own opinion about how much is too much; if everybody voices them > consensus!
And no body has a problem with receiving downvotes; they are an important and honest tool. btw. honest: You can judge your own post, and think about what's its value. If you earn less rewards, go and buy a vote. Me, I've sen by far more valuable posts paying out about 1STU...
Based on what?
Isn't steem supposed to be a medium of exchange?
Isn't a vote essentially just a payment or donation?
If people want votes, it means they value steem. The more people who want steem, the greater the demand for steem and the greater the value becomes.
Paying for a vote is a steem purchase.
Don't you want people to buy steem?
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.004을 보팅해서 $0.036을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 6529번 $74.490을 보팅해서 $84.839을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
!dramatoken
:)
I hope this leads to a constructive argument.
me too
곰돌이가 @jaydih님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.006을 보팅해서 $0.034을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 6528번 $74.486을 보팅해서 $84.803을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!
To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.I understand why they have the downvoting system and agree it needs to exist.
But I believe people should be getting taught or informed what they have done before just receiving a downvote!
In instances like this, I don't understand why the downvoters go after the people learning the ropes instead of taking on the bot owners, if enough people felt as strongly as they did, surely the bot owners would listen?
The downvoters are saying their actions are to improve steem, and I understand they're trying to protect the reward pool. But, I believe their current actions will actually do more damage to the number of users on steem, surely there is a better way... That's just my opinion, time will tell.
Thank you for the opinion. I completely agree that they should talk to bot operators first.
My guess is that these bots are usually owned/operated by "powerful" guys so downvoters do not want to face them.
It was impossible to really talk to the bot owners; and you can't downvote them as long as they only sell votes but don't post. Besides that, they are exactly the greedy people that are hard to talk to.
Can they not warn you prior the downvote about what you need to avoid? Did they at least try to reach SCT and tell them about their new policy? Is this how New Steem deal with abuses, surprise attacks small accounts and communities and want them to abandon something they have invested their money, time and effort in? Is downvote the only cure to abuses? Is this not borderlining into bullying and power tripping? I probably missed a lot of communications or there are no proper communications.
Can they not do better than this?
I used bidbots because that was a way for me to invest in Steem and that was how I grew my account without any whale support or attention. I am not saying bidbots are not abusive, but not everyone abused Steemit via bidbots. As far as I am concerned I only withdrew significant amount of SBD/Steem once, back when I was starting 30 SBD when it was worth 7 USD each. Just to prove that Steemit was not scam. I bidbot not to game the system and make me earn, I bidbot to grow my account and help make my community of plankton that less people cared. Then lately, I have just been surprised with downvotes. I stopped sending bids because I actually understand how they want to fix the bidbot abuse and I appreciate that. But you know, tagging you as an abuser, downvoting you suddenly without any warning coming from an authority... I guess that is not what I expected.
Removing a total of $2 is not saying it is abuse. It is only stating that in one opinion it is over valued.
I've used bots too. Doesn't mean a mildly interesting post should be on trending with a a $27 purchased blind vote. :)
I rarely make a comment because it's most often misunderstood, based on some past experience and the many things I see around. But for this issue, I really think more communications must be made than have this no warning flag spree. I appreciate what you guys do for Steemit, I do. But not everyone will take those flags like I do and I cannot blame them. No benefit of the doubt given. No warning. You have a good goal. But to those people who do not know what you are fighting for, worst that they can conclude is that these people are just happy to flag. Many ways to communicate a warning, leave a comment, make a post and tag suspects, this is what I suggest. I don't know much about these new movements, do people earn when they flag?
The way it works is you each of us has stake to vote with.
A post is open for 7 days. People can upvote, ignore or downvote with their stake.
No explanation is required. The post I downvoted was worth about $60 when I downvoted it. I left a polite explanation.
My downvote with the combination of the 2 accounts equal less than $2 in fact, now that I think about it, I didn't even hit it with the larger account. I only hit with like .30 cents. :) So, this is a pretty silly over reaction.
I didn't call it abuse and I wasn't rude. I explained why I think it is over-valued. I don't hate the bidbots and I have nothing personal against the OP or the person I downvoted.
I also do not mind you asking how it works, and no one earns for downvoting, it can return rewards to the entire pool.
That was actually nice of you. I have not seen the said thread but knowing you left a reason made it better than the scenario I have in mind. But if I had that drive to correct someone here then I would spare the downvote first and make sure they know what's up because who knows they know nothing. In an analogy, for example, if I was out there in a public place and someone offended me, I would actually tell them I am offended by what they did. In my perception which is probably not same as theirs, I am offended. So, I would probably get to hear the person why they did something that got me offended. I would not slap them and tell them that was for being offensive and expect them to change and we both know peace.
I'd rather have Steemit corrected from abuses than be destroyed by it, no doubt about it but is this the better or best way to get there? Instant flags? Perma flags?
Those are all I have to say. I am glad there is an effort to make Steemit better and some people are proactive about it. It's just my 2 cents and probably my last effort on the flagging abuse issue. I hope I made a tiny point. Thanks for the attention.
@
mermaidvampire, would you also expect to have a comment why somebody upvoted your post?
Why would I explain every downvote and not every upvote? Have you ever noticed how no one ever says...
So and so upvoted my post and didn't even tell me why. :) Downvotes are a normal part of the system and in order for curation to work we need to normalize them.
If we can not downvote, we will have to stop doing author rewards entirely, some are already for this, there is just too much abuse and shit posting for no other reason than to get rewards.
There is this account camillesteemer that downvotes random people for no reason and it has pissed people off. The SP and downvote of course is 0 but it puzzles you when you get that downvote of him or her. That's probably the kind of culture we are heading for and I guess I will rest my case here and just deal with it, you say.
So it is mildly interesting to you so you downvote.
May I assume that you would not complain when you get downvote for that reason?
You can assume I don't complain when I get upvotes or downvotes.
They work the same way. Posts are open for 7 days, people can upvote or downvote for any reason during that time.
I didn't downvote the post for how interesting it was or wasn't it is over rewarded out of the Steem rewards and I find the idea the vote was paid for with SCT devalues Steem. It's just an opinion expressed with my dv.
Thank you for your opinion. I don't really know what new steem movement is, but hope such downvotes are not one of the movement.
Well, it's a good idea in theory and hopefully soon in practice. New Steem is something I like and I want to happen because that actually is a sign that Steemit Inc still cares to make Steemit better. I can only share 1 very nice material to you, just try to get to the recent posts of exyle, there is one recent post where he makes a comparison of the new steem and old steem and why new steem is better. I like it, it convinced me about the new steem and I know exyle to be straightforward and clear about his ideas, opinions and thoughts. Very nice read.
I mean, I obviously like and appreciate new steem but this practice of "join us downvote and surprise small users with flags" is something dreadful in my opinion because anyone can and should warn people or at least tell them what's new. I mean it's possible to do that first, why ain't anyone doing that?
You are right . Most of the tribes are doing this using these methods. Trading tokens for steem upvotes. If they are gonna flag SCT then they need to flag every other tribe and we may see how that goes. One might not be as forthcoming. You ask the question what is too much? Good question. It seems too much is getting your post trending. Dont get it to trending and you have no downvotes. Simples. None of these guys actually read the posts especially if they are in a different language unless of course they trend . If a rich man is making a bucket load , they are not heading down to the taxman showing off their new yacht!! They keep driving the shoddy old Volvo lambasting the rich smiling in the background. The good thing is that the blockchain is open and transparent and you can see exactly what bots your accusers have used since they have been on this platform. It may make interesting reading.
Posted using Partiko Android
Thank you for your opinion. And your advice was helpful - blockchain records do show lots of interesting history.
Don't buy and sell votes, it undermines honest voting.
Content creators are competing for the attention of stakeholders in a level playing field. Paying for votes completely defeats the process of rewarding and discovering content based on the voters subjective appraisal which is required for our platform to succeed.
I am even more against schemes that require buyers to dump Steem to purchase votes using an altcoin as it has all the above harmful effects while putting downward price pressure on Steem directly. My downvotes will be very focused on this set of behaviors.
My recommendation is if you believe these alts are pricing in unchallenged vote buying into their value, then that's likely not going to continue for long and your best bet is to sell them before others do, including the creators of these alts themselves.
I am not the only large stakeholder against these initiatives.
First of all, I believe we have not "met". And I find it uncomfortable that someone, stranger to me, directly "orders" me what to and what not to do.
And let me clarify your misunderstanding regarding steem engine tokens.
Many steem engine tribes, especially SCT, has incentived users to BUY lots steem which supported steem prices. @aggroed will confirm that SCT alone has gathered more than a million steem. Or I guess one may check historic inflow of steem from exchanges (say, upbit) that goes to SCT or other token purchases using the blockchain record.
I have not used non-steem engine based bidbots before, so I have limited knowledge in this matter. But as far as I know, these bidbots were mainly supported or run by large stakeholders. Not sure how these large stakeholders think, b/c I am not one of them.
My recommendation is that if you feel uncomfortable or go against these bots, you should talk to the owners/operators of bots first.
They're not being downvoted because of whatever alleged good they're doing.
They're being downvoted because of vote selling. As I explained, it completely undermines the ability for us to function as a fair content rewards and discovery platform, which is our central value proposition.
Of course people can continue to use these services and many will continue to use our free downvotes to make abusive behavior as unprofitable as possible, which is what they're intended for.
You seem to be advocating school-yard-bully economics.
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.011을 보팅해서 $0.029을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 6531번 $74.533을 보팅해서 $84.876을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
This is a very similar method whales on Whaleshares used that brought down the price of WLS significantly.
Freedomexists being a good example.
What would happen is that you would sell your WLS for BTS, then use BTS to buy the "Whaletoken" on the market. You would send the whaletoken to the whale and he would upvote you for a higher amount of WLS then you spent.
This created massive downward pressure on the price of WLS and one of the reasons Whaleshares is pretty much dead.
SCT wont have such an effect but you can see what stuff like this does.
For now SCT and Steemmonsters are operating almost entirely on vote selling through alt coins and a few self/affiliate votes. Maybe there are a few more.
They've been getting away with a lot as most of the attention was focused on conventional bots since the EIP, but I've been targeting them lately as have others
Its easier to hide since the sale isnt written on chain.
Same as with WLS.
Also could you look at the comment i pinged you in an hour ago. Want to see what you think.
Posted using Partiko Android
They're still written on chain, but through custom json
But your point stands that they don't have to be written on chain
I don't think it's trivially easy to create a vote selling service with very far reach yet have the voting accounts themselves be difficult to detect. Although it may be pretty easy to hide payments that track individual posts. So you can likely scrutinized accounts of known vote sellers for a while at least and downvote their votes on low quality content.
Ultimately, we'll have to move to a culture where people need to feel comfortable downvoting and getting downvoted due to reward disagreement. It'll never feel great getting downvoted, but there doesn't need to be drama each time.
That will never happen. You are not going to magically change the way humans react to downvotes/dislikes. When rewards are involved it is even less possible.
It is an action that people will continue to find insulting and aggressive. It will simply never take place that everyone will just be fine with downvotes, not unless Steem stops receiving new users and maintains only a static number of accustomed voters.
I think sct is by far the most successful and most valuable Scot tribe.
You're upping the drama to new levels! Have a DRAMA.
To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.I think the Witnesses who made Downvoting mana on HF21 and HF22 should think again.
!dramatoken