RE: Fairweather Eden my "conversion" to evolution
I take issue with the word 'Magnificent' here.
Presumably he created the natural process of evolution if you believe in such supernatural creators, no? If that's the case, why is everything so flawed and broken?
Case and point, The giraffe's laryngeal nerve that, at some point in the past got stuck and lengthened as the neck got longer to travel all the way up and back again to its destination, inches away from where it started. You can trace this back through the giraffe's ancestors and determine how and why this happened - It was simply cheaper, after 'making a mistake' if we are to humanize the process, to keep going incrementally than it was to completely erase everything and start with a new evolutionary blueprint.
If this God created the giraffe through a process he created, why so flawed? That being one of millions of examples.
My other issue with this is why would humans have souls but not pre-humans or other apes or any animal, when we're all just abiding by a natural process. Does God decide at a particular point to imbue us with souls, right around the time we become capable of sacrifice, war and torture?
Why is this natural process full of things specifically designed to kill us and put us in grave pain; insects that evolved specifically to burrow into the eyes of children and then eat its way back out for example.
This brings me to think of the famous conundrum by Epicurus:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
The only argument for this is that whatever God does is by definition 'good', in which case your use of the word marvelous applies to all the evil out there in the world that God created; the Golden hoarde that were awarded souls who then proceeded to, when a war was won, gather the women and children and force them to lie in the mud, then build wooden platforms over them, park all their horses, men and supplies on top for the night and celebrate, all while crushing their bones into suffocation.
Is this, like evolution, by definition 'magnificent'? Or is god unwilling or unable to prevent it?
God does not prevent evil because evil is necessary to accomplish His "marvelous" ends. Refinement occurs in an environment of adversity, a stone is polished by grinding, metal is hardened by beating.
As you rightly point out evolution is an imperfect process and produces imperfect results. It is this emergent imperfect world we live in that provides the very crucible in which we, as the offspring of God, are forged and gain experience.
One cannot fully comprehend sweet without having tasted bitter, one cannot exercise choice without at least two alternatives, evil exists that we may comprehend good and learn to prize it.
If you're interested in the scriptural basis for this I quote below:
2 Nephi 2
Hmmm. … scriptural basis … Respectfully, @gavvet, to help with any misconceptions our fellow Steemians might have from reading this, would we be able to agree on something? Specifically, that applying this adjective to this book would be okay primarily, if not exclusively, with members of the LDS church?
New to your posts and reading this, I am wondering whether you are an active member or at least very interested in this church. Assuming so, your sympathetic view of evolution is certainly understandable. I recall a phrase, from my youth, from the LDS church. While perhaps not an exact quote, it says, "As man is now, God once was; as God is now man may be.” You may be familiar with it.
May I humbly suggest our fellow Steemians might find a major challenge supporting this statement from Scripture?
Thank you for this post and your comments @gavvet. I have upvoted it and am now following you!
If this is the case then humans have become 'better' in spite of God, not because of god.
He created a situation of perpetual suffering, then laid out the rules of the bible which presumably we can just completely ignore and let natural selection and later technology do the work, no? I mean, I'm an atheist yet I consider myself a far kinder and thoughtful individual than many of those christian bigots I've met and read about who study the bible, the same as many other non-believers, so clearly the bible isn't necessary to guide us in any way, it can guide us either on a dark path or a light one, depending on who we are as a result of natural selection and genetics.
In fact, we've defied the bible in so many ways as a global society yet pushed to a far better place, that it's another example of progress in spite of efforts from God to thwart us.
Furthermore, I think the level of suffering from nature is pretty excessive if the only motive is to make us appreciate the good stuff. Thousands of generations of torture, disease and God's own personal (very human) issues - many of which actually created by humans themselves.
How can one reasonably worship a God that decided this was the only reasonable direction to take to reach a magnificent end? Why not simply leave that out of the blueprints? If these things cannot be understood by mortal humans, then I see no reason why we should bother following their lead, as they take us through countless millennia of horror and despair that only really existed via his own product; the soul. The only logical approach - which is all us humans have to go by - is to abandon such terror and guide ourselves with science and understanding of the world and each other.
This happens irrespective of any greater power, evidently. Ergo, to me, God's only input in our existence is to make us suffer. That doesn't sit right with me, and I find it odd that anybody could keep it on faith that eventually something magnificent will come out of it all, history just doesn't support that premise.
Hope this makes sense, stream of thought unplanned
Edit: I realise this is probably not the place to be having such a potentially sizeable debate so I might just make a pondering post about these thoughts instead
My understanding of God and his purposes is a lot broader and deeper than you describe, therefore I find Him palatable. I can see your point of view in not wanting to believe in the god you describe. If that were my understanding and level of perception of him I could also likely choose the atheistic route.
However there is more than you describe and bigots etc. are found amongst atheists and non-believers alike. They are likely representative of the ratio in the rest of humanity... simply more noticeable because they profess a higher standard.
I must confess I've never actually read a bible (Other than what I was raised with in CoE schools) and generally find it hard to engage with individuals since there's always this kind of thick red line between 'us and them', so I'm obviously somewhat biased and ignorant of the deeper levels that you claim to be aware of. Something for me to think about =)
Well said, and the stream is oftentimes the better way 😀
Fascinating example, this one about the giraffe. I doubt it will convince any creationist though, just like the eternal debate about good/evil, because... hey... FAITH! :)
Well, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just philosophizing, get a better understanding of a different thought process. It's fun =)