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RE: Game Design - Moving on from GNS Theory

in #rpg7 years ago

But that's exactly the point, it is useful, but let's first get to the evidence.

All right, let me be clearer.

I'm holding up a ball.

What are the ratings on this thing?

Is it a Toy or is it a Game? We know it's not a Simulation (or is it) though it has definitely been involved in Narration though does not necessarily impose one by its presence.

Remember, this is supposed to be useful for RPG design and the general deconstruction of game play of all sorts. To be fit for task, it has to be able to describe things – and if the things that it can describe are terribly narrow or require a certain context, that needs to be stated up front as a condition of understanding the metric.

I maintain that this set of metrics is not particularly useful for describing the elements of a game. In part because we have already determined that games are the subject that were looking at. If we're going to try and classify entertainment engagement behaviors, which is what you seem to want to push toward, then you need to be able to look at a ball and tell me whether it is, inherently, a Toy or a Game.

Which you cannot.

The only context in which the metric is meaningful is an actual state of play, dynamic and current, and only representative of the mind of one of the players.

A race's no toy, it's a full blown game.

Pure assertion, and not entirely how people actually engage.

If I'm running around a track alone and I am curious about whether I can beat my own time, is that a toy or a game? Or simulation, given that there is no multiplayer competition occurring on the track at the time? If I'm running around a track with other people, and we are curious about who crosses the finish line first but not actively attempting to, is that a toy or game? If there are two of us running around the track and I'm curious about whether I will go faster this time than the last time I did and the other person is interested in doing it faster than I am, is it a toy or a game?

It seems obvious that the only important issue is the intent of the user and the tools in their hand can be used to any sort of occupation.

Is D&D a toy or a game? Your immediate urge is going to be to say "the game," but we all know that there is a considerable part of the player base that's just there to socialize with their friends and pushing miniatures around on a map is less important to a lot of them than interesting conversations with NPC's; they are engaging with it as a toy. It has no internal, intrinsic nature.

But if being a toy is inherently binary with being a game, your system don't work. It doesn't describe things that we can observe as true.

If an infant plays with a ruler it don't mean we have measurement. Just kicking a ball (playing with a toy) don't automatically give you football (you'd need the goal of getting the ball to through goal frame).

Football doesn't immediately give you a goal, necessarily. Or at least the goal that's meaningful. Backyard football with your buddies? Just an excuse to rumble in the dirt and have moments of competition, but you are engaging with the ball, the rules, and each other essentially as a big toy?

Your system doesn't hold. It doesn't describe the observables. It assumes and asserts binary division where there is none.

The question is what is the focus of the game; if you had to grossly simplify it to find the only the single most important thread (even if that thread were a non-thread between threads as in opposed mechanics: you must earn and spend $ becomes you must manage $).
Weird combinations do happen, but what is the whole?

When you must contextualize your claim down to the point where it is meaningless, you really should abandon your claim.

If trying to describe the world requires you to turn the things that you're describing into a homogenous mush before you can apply your metric, you cannot expect to measure anything but the grossest, least differentiated, least individual things about whatever your subject was before it went into the grinder.

In particular with modes of play and human experience, that's a recipe for being complete crap.

It's also one of the reasons that original GNS Theory was, surprisingly, complete crap. It could describe portions of play and modes of play, but it couldn't describe games in general, despite the fact that its most cultish practitioners really wanted to. They were obsessed with the map being the territory.

That's never a recipe for success.

And I say: Yep. No reasonable assessments here. Not academic categorization. Instead, stimulation. (The "wow I never thought of it in that way")

I'm all for engaging in gedanken experimenken, but it really needs to at least be consistent if you're going to pursue the line of discussion and disputation. Without actual consistency, what's the point? Unless you're feeling around for an idea that actually has a shape rather than just sticking your hand into a dark hole and announcing you found something, why talk about it?

And if you're going to talk about things just because they're interesting, doesn't it seem that it should be sensible to avoid the structure of asserting assessment or academic categorization, especially if you just spent 20 minutes doing both?

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Nah man, you confused who wrote what- I'm not the original poster, I'm just a commenter. I believe if you reread, this will shed a different light on my responses.

Is it a Toy or is it a Game?

Depends on the context.

Football doesn't immediately give you a goal, necessarily. Or at least the goal that's meaningful. Backyard football with your buddies?

Backyard football isn't football.

By football I meant European football (soccer, if you're American). The point I wanted to make is that football is all its parts. The ball, the team, the goals, the time - that's all part of the (core) game. We can then extend observation of football as an activity and include audience, training, news etc. The point is still the same: Context is the part of what we're talking about, in this case games. Playing catch is not running a race. Backyard football isn't football.

Is D&D a toy or a game?

Definitely a game, it says so on the tin: roleplaying game (rpg) system. Roleplay in general on the other hand I'd call play or a performing art if it's all fancy. Dice I'd call toys (This is Koster, not Edwards.), but not in the context of a roleplaying game, there dice are a randomizer generator (kind of like verb vs predicate).

If trying to describe the world requires you to turn the things that you're describing into a homogenous mush before you can apply your metric, you cannot expect to measure anything but the grossest, least differentiated, least individual things about whatever your subject was before it went into the grinder.

I agree that op misses the point, but this what you said is also not true and I explained why and how in the comment I linked you. Yes, it is true description is vague (highly abstract), but that still doesn't mean it is useless.

I believe what I find fallacious in your responses is sciences vs humanities. GNS and such theories are not science and are bad in that respect. What they are good in is something else. The burden of proof to prove scientific claims can (i.e. must to belong to a serious category) be applied is on you, since I did not subscribe to such metrics in my claims. :P (i.e. no, I don't want to play by that ruleset, i.e. play that game) Again, I believe you confused who wrote what. We can be scientific about it, and that is why I write in this why (humanities vs natural science).

So what purpose can they serve you can find in my comment (root, directly to op) in the conclusion part (so as I don't repeat needlessly), but briefly: describing is meh, creativity is great, mushy no problem.

Another example:

letters and words are toys (words have no "it-is-to-be-used-in-this-way": see dada, which is unstructured play)

language is a system, our discussion is play (structured play, we have goals, to explain, but no over-arching goal: to win, that is why such behaviour can be considered rude [not implying anything btw]),

and if we had a judge who'd score us, then we would have metrics and we can then have an over-arching goal (to defeat the other side with arguments) and it would be a game called debate. (In case of public debates, the public is the judge, with the resulting votes being the metric.)

It is obviously possible to be both strongly Game and strongly Toy.

First of all, it is not obvious :P Secondly it is not even true. Not by Ernest Adams' definition.

A toy does not come with any rules about the right way to play with it.

The goal of the game is defined by the rules and is arbitrary because the game designers can define it any way they like.