The Government Shutdown
Have you noticed the government is shutdown? For me, the only way I know it is by listening to the news telling me the sky is falling and the government is not in place to stop it. All this is over $5 billion to build a wall along our southern border to protect the citizens of our country from illegal immigration. I doubt it would take long for the average citizen to go through this budget to find enough waste to fund the $5 billion to go toward the wall. I recognize that many of these illegal aliens are honest, law abiding, hardworking people that simply want to make a better life for themselves. I also know that when they cross the border illegally they are intentionally breaking our laws putting themselves immediately at odds with the majority of our society who are also honest, law abiding, and hard working. The foremost responsibility of any government is to protect the nation's borders and it's citizens.
Everyone reading this, I want to ask a favor of you. Go outside and look up and you will see, the sky is not falling. If it happens to be raining or snowing, that's not the sky falling, it's a natural phenomenon called weather and we had it when the government was in full operation. I've been hesitant to write about my views on the government shutdown until I heard Andrew Wilkow discussing it on his radio show and realized others probably feel the same way Wilkow and I do, the government should stay shutdown.
You've probably seen stories of trash building up at National Parks and National Forest as well as them being closed. This is because workers at National Parks and Forests are considered non-essential government employees, and they are non-essential. Why don't the people that go to these facilities do what the vast majority of serious outdoorsmen do, clean up after themselves and take the trash home. Hopefully everyone knows some of these people, those that hunt, fish, and don't consider it camping to pull up in an RV to hook up to water and electricity. You know those people that are more likely to belong to the NRA than to the Sierra Club or Greenpeace.
In addition to these workers being non-essential, their jobs can be considered unconstitutional. Look back at the post on Federal Government Overreach. Nowhere in the enumerated powers of Congress, which makes the laws in our country, is the authority to provide National Parks and Forests. I'm not saying we shouldn't have them, but why not have the individual states responsible for these facilities and employees rather than the federal government?
It's been reported most of the I.R.S. is shutdown which will cause a slowdown in processing returns. Think about it, most of the I.R.S. is shutdown and it only slows them down? How much could we cut this agency without causing real problems. Let's keep them shutdown to see what we can really do without. If it turns out we need to bring and 2% to 3% back for this and another 5% for that, let's leave the government shutdown and see what happens.
As stated earlier, the main task of any government is to protect it's borders and citizens. Why are military troops and TSA considered non-essential during a shutdown? Pay for these people should continue because they execute the main responsibility of the government. During these shutdowns, the Postal Service continues but our military doesn't get paid? Plus, in this age of computerization, how difficult can it be to push a few buttons to initiate the distribution of paychecks either electronically or through the Postal Service.
Let's keep the government shutdown until Democrat's decide to fund the defense of our southern border. If we need to change the classification of some workers from non-essential to essential we can do it in small percentages. Personally, I don't believe most of those in our government want it to stay shutdown because the public will eventually come to the realization that our government is too large and needs to be scaled back.
You may recognize, as I do, this approach probably violates the union contract between the government and government employees. This is easy enough for President Trump to fix. On January 17, 1962 President John F. Kennedy signed Executive Order #10988 granting collective bargaining rights to government employees. Since that time there has been no legislation passed protecting that right. Just as easily as President Kennedy grated the collective bargaining rights to government employees it could be taken away by President Trump.
If you think the sky is falling now with the government shutdown, just wait until the government unions are gone. For those of us who truly want to see the Washington swamp drained, here's a large plug to pull from near the bottom.
No, the sky is not falling, but there are real issues.
If you are in the market for a home loan and you need USDA approval, not getting your loan.
Clearly you are not a small business. Anyone issuing an IPO cannot right now. The SEC is mostly shut down. That means, everyone who spent a lot of money (and IPO's are VERY expensive) needs to redo all their paperwork. AND costs.
Also, if you are Poor, on any one of dozens of programs, you are out of luck. SNAP, the food assistance program. Out of money. WIC program, for money for kids too poor to afford lunches or breakfasts at school, out of money.
the military is still being funded, but, curiously, the COAST GUARD is part of the Department of Homeland Security. Most, but not all, patrols are not affected, but, boater education? safety inspections? training? nope. Not happening. Oh, speaking of Homeland Security? Border agents? not being paid.
Oh, I assume you don't eat. Because, Food inspections? not happening.
And National Parks? so far, three have died, with no Rangers manning the parks. Most parks are seeing piles and piles of trash and damage as a result of people wandering aimlessly. The images are painful to see.
TSA, the safety people are airports? not getting paid. they are simply not reporting for work. So, lines are longer... and who knows what is being missed.
Along with the IPO issue, some SEC investigations for Fraud and Deceit are shut down.
And IRS is affected... yes, indeed. no refunds will be processed. I trust you weren't counting on the money. I know many seniors and retirees do.
You're right, there are real issues and I do not own a small business. How many small businesses are there that are issuing an IPO? The vast majority of small businesses aren't worried about not being able to issue an IPO.
The SNAP program is funded through the end of January and the WIC program is funded into February.
Actually, I do eat and was at the grocery store this week and saw no evidence of food shortage.
While the these people are wandering aimlessly through the national parks, why don't we donate trash bags for them to collect garbage. As public lands we are the real owners of these properties but do little to help maintain them.
The TSA has not missed a paycheck yet. Those that work at TSA are simply calling in sick and choosing not to work. This shouldn't be blamed on the shutdown but on the union. Plus, read what I wrote carefully. I specifically mentioned the TSA with the military with the question of why they are not considered an essential part of the government.
Since the government shutdown started the SEC has made eight press releases, including one on December 20th. None of these press releases indicated a shutdown of SEC investigations but three of them indicated charges being brought and one discussed a settlement by JPMorgan Chase. Seems like they are still operating.
The IRS has only scaled back, they are not shutdown. Yes, refunds will be slow but they will be coming out.
My post also suggested we monitor what needs to happen in our government and bring those people back as needed. Our government is bloated and needs to be downsized, now is a perfect opportunity.
I am sure, you and I will disagree on much of this subject, but, let's agree to disagree on the individual parts.
Why is it important to pay $5 Billion for a wall that is not needed? The promise he made, was Mexico is paying. Do you hold him accountable?
Why pay for it, when, most illegals are coming in to the country through other means?
Well, border patrol agents say the wall is needed if we want to control our borders. They are closer to the problem than I am taking their word for the necessity of a wall.
Personally, I never expected Mexico to cough up a check to pay for the wall. I don't need to hold Trump accountable for Mexico paying for the wall, I want to hold him accountable for not having it under construction yet.
You have locks, I assume, on doors where you live to control who comes and goes. Why not just let anyone come and go where you live? Because you want security.
If we don't build a wall, what's your suggestion on stemming this portion of the illegal alien flow and slowing the importation of drugs?
Illegal drugs?
Fund the Coast Guard and Stop the demand.
Most illegal drug shipments come thru ports like LA, Long Beach and across the ocean via the Caribbean. Usually in extremely sophisticated, fiber glass drug submarines. The legal crossing stations at borders are usually where the remaining drugs come through.
The wall, again, will do little to nothing to stem illegal aliens, nor drugs. If you are serious, check some of the data on where it comes across and where illegal immigrants come into the US.
no where near the place where this expensive symbolic wall happen.
And your suggestion?
First, spend money eliminating the need.
CUT the market, and the drugs flow a lot less.
AND then, spend the money on palces where it is needed. Reform how we manage immigrants. Since that vast majority of illegals come via airport... why aren't we better understanding where they are once they get here?
Port inspections are obscenely lax!
entire containers come thru without any inspections.
Well, reading this exchange has been interesting. I'm with @mikehamm.
I will only add that if we had a wall, which we should, the money we save not chasing down illegal immigrants, paying their medical, education, housing, food and whatever else expenses, we'd save 5 billion....these savings would pay for The Wall. All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
I don't particularly care who pays officially. US citizens are paying too much towards those who are already here. Use my tax dollars wisely...build a wall, add cameras, drones, people, fences or whatever but secure the borders.
@bluefinstudios has some good points though it's just hard to verify his data. I looked at local press releases from the U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) and found a significant number of drug apprehensions occurring between checkpoints. I couldn't find summary reports that detailed out where drug apprehensions were being made along the border and it is probably that when an arrest happens they are taken to the checkpoint for processing.
The VISA overstays was a little easier. USA Today reports that over 600,000 people overstayed their visas in 2017 and compares this number to slightly more than 300,000 people caught crossing the southern border. The article goes on to point out the number of people overstaying their visas drops over time and by May of 2018 the 600,000 number had dropped to 421,325. It's still more than the 300,000 but it's more comparable.
Comparing these numbers has a problem. It's comparing apples and oranges. The 600,000 is the number of people overstaying visas making it the total number of that group in the country illegally. The 300,000 people crossing the border represents those that were caught. There is no way everyone is caught crossing the southern border, The CBP goal (from the CBP 2016 Annual Report) in 2016 was to catch 81% of those crossing the border illegally. That brings the number of people detected crossing the border up to around 370,000. The number that can only be estimated is how many illegals got across the border without being detected. If you assume half the people crossing the border illegally get detected, it would mean that 740,000 people attempted to cross the border in 2016. But no one can really tell you how many cross the border without being detected, if they try to you have to wonder how they count people they can't detect but I am sure liberals have a way to do that.
Facts are facts. Figures are figures. The agent that spoke in Texas with Trump emphasized the number of different countries the illegals at the southern border contained. I would guess if someone from Pakistan is trying to come illrgally from Mexico, there is a reason.
We will never know how many are here illegally. They can't track the legal ones.
I can't see why we can't just hold everything off until laws, security and funds are in place, then, slowly open the border using control and laws. We have to get control before we can manage.
How much can our county withstand and for how long? We can't, or don't take care of our homeless, poor nor those held hostage in neighbors taken over by he influx of immigrants. But we are sure worried about other's from those conditions.
Sorry, but citizens first.
Well put @nana-nini.
oh, new medicines not being investigated or approved as well. Nothing much happening at FDA
Cannot believe I forgot this, but, most of my friend sat NASA are out of work.
No research going on. And the worse part of the shut down for NASA, is, that anything on a timeline, like probes being launched that depend on orbits, to moons, or planets, are going to miss windows of launch. Some might be only weeks, but Mars? that's 3 years wait, if the timeline slips.
I could go on and on, but, I've hijacked the discussion to much already.
Last thing, I should mention, but, the VAST majority of illegals in this country? Come legally through an airport or other point of entry, and simply stay after their visa expires.
5 Billion for a wall, simply a waste, on a project that would not help. Since this President campaigned on the promise that Mexico would pay for it, not a dime of American Taxpayer money should go there. Not when that money could house literally every homeless veteran.
Hey, how about this?
Why doesnt the President do what he did for all his contractors in Mar-A-Lago? Or Trump Casino in Atlantic City? Or NYC? Hire contractors and stiff them on the bill. At least he knows how to do that.
As I said in a previous comment and the original post, as we find portions of the government that need to be opened it should be looked at, but we should take advantage of this opportunity to downsize our government.
Do you really believe that Trump stiffed "all" his contractors on these buildings and then either they came back to work for him again or he got new contractors? If the contractors are that stupid to work for someone that "stiffs" them on their bills they don't deserve to be in business.
I honestly do not beleive he "stiffs" all of them
But he certainly does owe hundreds of contractors over the years
There are literally Millions in unpaid contractor invoices for the TRUMP HOTEL IN DC
IN Atlantic City, he has unpaid invoices decades old for Pianos in his casino
Trump flat out told him he should be happy he had a chance to work with him
A simple google search will show dozens of cases on Real Estate deals where trump has not paid invoices to contractors.
At first, people always fall for scam artists. BUT eventually, it catches up.
Who? Why did they work for him? If he is such an unreliable person to do business with why would anyone want to work with him?
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I think this talk about whether the wall is justified really misses the point. If there is a wall built, it will not stop illegal immigration. The immigrants will simply climb over it or go around it. Refusing to appropriate funds for this wall will not help immigrants who are kept out because of quotas and other irrational, unconstitutional policies. It will just keep the government shut down for no good reason.
I remember the first time I saw the government get shut down. It was in the mid-1990's. The reason? Republicans wanted to pass a budget that would balance within seven years according to CBO projections. President Clinton would not agree with this. He wanted to pass a fake balanced budget where the OMB could fudge the numbers. The Republicans refused to pass a budget that did not balance according to CBO projections, so the government shut down for several months.
Now, that was a legitimate reason. But this is just absurd. Give the guy his stupid wall. It doesn't matter anyway.
On some points I agree with you, the discussion of whether to build the wall or not does miss the point. My whole point in my post was that our government is too large and needs to me downsized. For a large part of the population, I won't say most but it is close, this government shutdown doesn't impact our lives on a day to day basis. We simply have too many people working in our government and if you take 15%, 20% or 25% of them out, it really doesn't impact many of us, so why do we need them?
Barriers at the border have been shown to be effective. Everywhere a border barrier has been built they have been effective. Israel is a great example but here in the U.S. the Yuma district is another. They are not and never will be 100% effective, but they help. If you go back and look at when illegal immigration started increasing and when wage stagnation started here in the U.S. you will see, we need some help. Adding something on the order of 1,000,000 workers a year to the workforce has held wages down for 40 years or so. By not doing anything to stem illegal immigration the government has been allowing the destruction of the middle class for that 40 years.
The federal government establishing guidelines for how many immigrants come into this country however is constitutional. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4 of the Constitution assigns Congress with the responsibility "To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization". This has been established by the Supreme Court to mean the federal government can control how many aliens are allowed into this country.
Regardless of how explicit it's called out in the Constitution, every country in the world controls the flow of people into and out of their country. Besides borders, it's one of the few other things that makes them a sovereign nation. Without that control, how does a country take care of it's citizens? Or even know who are the citizens?
That shutdown in the 1990's, the republicans held firm and won that battle. Through the press, history praises Clinton for generating a balanced budget that resulted from his loss to the republicans. The press is even worse now and if Trump wins this battle, the press will turn it around and the democrats will be credited for any barrier built at the southern border. In 10 or 20 years, history will be praising the democrats for saving the middle class by building a border wall.
For the main point of your comment I agree with you: