I just shot down a gun grabbers Gun control argument

in #politics7 years ago

I had someone on a message board make a claim that all modern western countries have "solved" their gun violence problem by prohibiting private ownership of firearms, and argued that America is the only country that has not come up with a solution to gun crime. When I asked him to name one country that has "solved" their gun violence issue, he referenced England and Australia. This was my response:

Ok let's start with Australia:

Sydney hostage crisis (2014)

On 15 December 2014, a self-proclaimed Muslim sheikh, Man Haron Monis, took 17 people hostage inside a chocolate café in Sydney. He forced hostages to hold up a jihadist black flag against a window of the café. On the early hours of 16 December, police breached the café and fatally shot Monis following the escape of several hostages. Two hostages also died, while another four people, including a police officer, were injured in the incident.[20][21]

The designation of the 2014 Sydney hostage crisis, also known as the Sydney Martin Place siege, has been subject to debate among terrorism experts and news commentators. Initially, during the early stages of the incident, the Australian government and NSW authorities did not label the event as a terrorist attack;[22][23] however, as the siege continued, NSW police authorised the engagement of the state's counterterrorism task force, treating the incident as an act of terrorism.[24] Commentators have debated whether the perpetrator of the attack, Man Haron Monis, was in fact a terrorist and whether his actions can be classified as an act of terrorism. One terrorism expert described Monis' actions as those of a "lone wolf terrorist ... driven by a desire for attention and to be in the spotlight."[25][26] Another wrote in an opinion column that the attack "was very different from first-generation or second-generation terrorist attacks—but it was terrorism, and terrorism of a brutal and more unpredictable sort."[27] Scott Stewart supervisor of the analysis of terrorism and security issues for Statfor said that this hostage-incident exhibits many of the elements associated with grassroots terrorism.[28] By contrast, criminologist Mark Lauchs stated that the event "was not about religion and neither was it a terrorist attack."[25] Media outlets have also provided conflicting designations for Monis; John Lehmann, editor of The Daily Telegraph, wrote how Monis filled the criteria of an Islamic State terrorist,[29] while a columnist for The Guardian wrote how the designation of a terrorist is misplaced and would only serve the interests of ISIL.[30] On 15 January 2015, Australia's Treasurer Joe Hockey declared the siege in Sydney's Martin Place as a terrorist incident for insurance purposes.[31]

The difference between terrorism and terrorising acts was noted in one analysis as "enormously important"—in Monis's case, terrorism "was clearly an element, but he was coming to the end of his rope with a variety of legal processes; there was clearly some mental instability."[32] One argument was that the gunman's lack of ties to any movement did not preclude his being a terrorist as it is "an inclusive club".[33]

Nick O'Brien, Associate Professor Counter Terrorism at Charles Sturt University has said Islamic State's magazine claim that the Sydney siege gunman is a righteous jihadist should not be lightly dismissed.[34] Dr David Martin Jones, Senior Lecturer at the School of Government, University of Tasmania has said not to underestimate the politically destabilising intent of Monis' lone-actor violence, as it is a considered-tactic and a strategic-goal of ISIL.[35], weapon used: 12 gauge sawed off shotgun.

2015 Parramatta shooting

On 2 October 2015, a 15-year-old Iranian-born Iraqi-Kurdish boy shot dead a 58-year-old accountant, who worked for the New South Wales Police Force, outside the Parramatta Police headquarters.[36][37][38] The boy then shot at special constables guarding the building, and was shot dead by them. NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione said "We believe that his actions were politically motivated and therefore linked to terrorism." Four men were arrested and charged in relation to the shooting.[39] Weapon used S&W .38 revolver

Now let's look at England shall we. This story is from the BBC, 16 July 2001. Keep in mind the firearms ban was implemented in 1997.

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.
The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

The ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.

Existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place

David Bredin
Campaign for Shooting
But the report suggests that despite the restrictions on ownership the use of handguns in crime is rising.

The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession.

Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.

And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average.

Smuggling

The campaign's director, David Bredin, said: "It is crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place.

"Policy makers have targeted the legitimate sporting and farming communities with ever-tighter laws but the research clearly demonstrates that it is illegal guns which are the real threat to public safety."

He said the rise was largely down to successful smuggling of illegal guns into the country.

Weapons have even been disguised as key rings no larger than a matchbox to get them in, he said.

Other sources of guns include battlefield trophies brought back by soldiers, the illegal conversion of replica firearms including blank firing pistols and the reactivation of weapons which had been deactivated.

Ammunition

Examples of illegally manufactured guns include screwdrivers being adapted to fire off one round, he said.

The Metropolitan Police said its official figures showed a 20% drop in armed robberies of commercial premises between April and July this year, compared with the same period last year.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said that, since April 2001, the Flying Squad has arrested 39 people in connection with 34 armed incidents and seized 52 weapons.

Operation Trident, which investigates "black on black" shootings in the UK, has made more than 300 arrests, recovered 100 firearms and 1,500 rounds of ammunition since it was established a year ago.

The Home Office said measures were being taken to tackle handgun crime, including an intensified effort against illegally smuggled weapons.

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If you compare the gun death rate per 100,000 people between USA and Australia - the majority of the difference (two thirds) can be attributed to suicide by gun deaths.

(The overall suicide rate is equal between the 2 countries - it is just americans have a gun handy and Australians need to find another method).

Bingo, all the research in Australia came up with another amazing finding, that public service campaigns and other interventions do work to reduce suicide rates. So if we want to reduce "gun violence" what we need is a good anti suicide campaign.

That is interesting. Do you know what years they ran the public service campaigns?

I don't know, in 2011 the press there changed the way they reported on suicide as an example of one of their interventions
http://www.presscouncil.org.au/document-search/standard-suicide-reporting/

Thank you

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