Does fate exist? (And by extension, is free will an illusion?)
Image taken from Pixabay
Does fate exist? (And by extension, is free will an illusion?)
We often find the concept of fate being referenced not only in mythology, literature and fiction but in modern traditions and superstitions. I think everyone, or most, has at some point of their lives thrown dice and believed that they were lucky, or pulled out the "lucky" cards and thought "hey, I'm lucky today".
But is it really coming from something supernatural?
Let us do a mental exercise and consider time as the linear passing of one moment to the next.
moment A -> moment B -> moment C
A moment would be the minimal measurable unit of time, although science has not gotten to this point due to technological limitations (so it is impossible to know whether time is actually continual or whether there are minimal units that cannot be divided.
Let us then consider that time has a beginning, which is actually debated, but it is a necessary assumption for the mental exercise. We start from point A, the first point in time ever, the firstmost moment that precedes everything that exists. Let us imagine that it is one particle, like a rock being thrown onto the ground (which we know is going to fall due to logic).
"Circumstances" are the rules of this game
In moment A, there is a set of surrounding circumstances. Imagine the hand already at the point of just opening, the starting point of inevitability, where the rock has already come out of our control and will take a quick tour from our fingers, in an arc through the air and onto the ground. The circumstances of moment A are measurable and perfectly logical, like any moment, like any point in time, nothing strange about it.
Moment A would be the cause of moment B. And moment B would be the direct consequence. When we throw a rock, the rock travels inevitably toward the direction in which the forces around it push it. The inertia of our hand pushes it forward, then the wind (air friction) moves it around a little, gravity pulls it downward. The rock doesn't disappear from our hand and appears somewhere else, on the moon, on another galaxy. The rock follows a perfect route, as far as we know, undisturbed by magical elements. Moment B would be similarly consequential in this assumption. It would not be arbitrary but absolutely all of the events in moment B would be the result of the circumstances in moment A that led to them.
If we consider that from moment A until right now, no disturbances have occurred, then we can safely say that everything from moment A until now has been perfectly consequential and that right now we are living in the indirect results of the circumstances that were surrounding moment A.
Image taken from Pixabay
What is fate?
The Oxford Dictionary defines fate as
the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.
To talk about fate in this sense, we would have to talk about purpose. We would have to assume that in some way, external forces have influenced the results of the physical world. That would mean either one of two possibilities.
- Someone/something has tampered with the line of moments from outside of time (or this being/thing is actually inside of time and modifies things in our physical plane)
- Someone/something has purposefully set the course of time, like the hand that throws a rock, in a specific trajectory in which certain things are bound to happen, including your getting a hand full of aces in your poker game.
However, for the purpose of this exercise, let us define fate differently. Fate would be the way that moment C will be when we are at moment A and we observe the current circumstances. When we successfully throw a rock forward in the open air, when nothing and no one is around, we require no prophecy to know that it will continue travelling forward, slightly affected by the wind, which is a natural phenomenon as defined by the laws of nature and circumstance.
Time is invariable
If moment B is the direct consequence of moment A, then moment B is invariable. The complete circumstances are set to lead to a specific consequence. If at moment A, there is a point moving to the right at 1 place per second, and it's in place 1, and at moment B, the point is in place 2, then at moment C, there is no reason to believe that the point could be in place 11, and that place 3 would be skipped. Moment C would come to find the point right in place 3.
In the world that we live in, there are uncountable particles, not just one "point", but if we are to assume that the results of this mental exercise are accurate and correspond to the way in which reality works, then we could also safely assume that unless there is an external force at work, each moment will have a specific consequence and that the results of throwing good dice a few times in a row could be only attributed to physical causes and not to luck... unless, I repeat, there are external forces influencing the results, and this would be a case of superstition or faulty dice that have a tendency to fall on a certain number.
On another note, this assumption could also lead us to the conclusion that every moment is set in stone according to the circumstances surrounding moment A. If we are in moment C and everything has been logical and will remain logical, then moment E will come to pass and our point will be on place 5. These circumstances surround us every day and when we make choices, we are influenced by these circumstances. We are also part of this material plane and if every moment is a consequence of the previous one, then we can safely assume that each of our thoughts and brain processes is influenced by this timeline. This would mean that in 80 years, things are bound to be in a certain circumstance and nothing can be done about it because the rock has already been thrown and there is nothing to stop it from falling into the lake.
We are partially free, and partially not free.
We are free when we understand the power of our mind.
We are not free when despite what we understand, we are still subjected to our environment/condition/nature that shapes our emotion (i.e. make us happy, sad, joyful, angry, etc).
If our emotion is dictated by our environment/condition/nature, then how can we say we have free will?
Try to be sad when we hear a funny joke, but that would contradict the nature.
Life can sometimes be seen as just a drama, with everyone as actor/actress following his/her own script.
The script is already written beforehand.
Thank you for your thoughts, Dorky! This is a hard topic and it brings terrible conclusions that make our illusion of freedom disappear. I'm not, however, a hard believer of "ignorance is bliss", so this knowledge brings me fulfilment.
I at least know which chains shackle me to the dungeons of reality. I like to see the blows coming even if this knowledge will fill me with dread for the future.
I agree
I recently read an article in which it was said that scientists discovered that we were aware that we made a decision after the brain had already taken it.
If this is true, fate would only be an illusion, our behavior would be predetermined by certain conditions, but identifying and studying this conditions will be complicated, our brain is a puzzle.
I didn't know that, but it makes a lot of sense! It's one thing to think, and it's another thing to perceive our thoughts, which require even more thoughts, so they would be further ahead in the line of perception.
This is an endlessly fascinating topic. I like to consider both sides and am not sure which option I really believe, but here's something to consider...
When I was 18 (ahem, 18 years ago), I visited a psychic/medium. She was a classic 'fortune teller' if you will, and gave me many prophecies that didn't really make sense at the time. Over the years, at least two thirds of what she told me came true- and it wasn't a matter of self-fulfilling prophecy, as I would only realise months or years down the line that what she'd told me had come true. I have a very strong bullshitometer but this woman was the real deal...now if she could tell me what was going to happen, something like fate must exist to some degree? I did ask her how this works- is our destiny set in stone? She described it like this: imagine the root system of a plant. The tap root is the path a person is most likely to follow, but there are other possibilities (the smaller roots leading off the tap root). The smaller the root, the less likely you are to take that path. So what she prophecises is the 'tap root' path. So in essence, we do have a certain destiny somewhat laid out for us, but it is not set in stone and our own free will can lead in many different directions.
The analogy that the medium described, about a more common route for people to follow (and she being prophesising that) makes me think that she might be picking what would be most common for anyone (almost statistically) and, if she told you that, then it would be more likely than if she went with more specificities that are not statistically probable (such as you becoming an astronaut and being the first human being to step on a planet on the Andromeda planetary system).
I don't know if that's what it was, but that's what I got from the analogy that you described. I don't necessarily believe in mediums and such, but I don't reject them as impossible either. I just think that it's unlikely given the explanations in the post, even though that makes me an utter sceptic without cure (and sometimes I'd love to be able to believe more of what people say, since life seems more beautiful when we can adore the divine and not feel repulsed by its imposed fictional authority).
Have you watched the Mentalist? I'm not saying your medium was like that, but I think that there's ways to read a person and come to think of a person's probable future from their current circumstances and their personality.
By the way, your name makes me think of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/bertstrips/
😂
Bert! 😂 I am an absolute sucker for stripes...I can't say no to anything stripey. Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
I definitely get what you're saying and I LOVE the mentalist! I would have cried fake if it weren't for really random and incredibly specific facts that she predicted about other people close to me, not only myself. She told me about illnesses that grandparents would have, who would pass away first etc (not the greatest info to know), and not your standard heart issues, strokes etc either- I'm talking rare diseases here. I have since visited other people claiming to be gifted but there was definitely no talent of any sort there! So the original lady still remains the only one that I simply can not explain away, especially considering that your average person on the street (never mind a lady in her 70's) didn't even have internet access.
But, like you, I do have some sceptism...the scientist in me says it's just not possible. There must be a logical explanation. I'm not sure I want to believe that everything is laid out for us either. I do like exploring all the options though.
Do you do science? Do you have a STEM major?
The only possible logical explanation that excludes supernatural access to information about fate would be that you have signals of being a passive carrier to a disease, belong to an ethnicity that has a high tendency to get that disease or you told her things about your family that may have led her to believe that these things could happen. But of course, I'm just playing here, I know nothing about you or your situation and you must know better about it than me.
I'm one to see what others would consider evidence and I just throw objections at it as if it were some diabolic mistruth that needs to be oppressed. I find it rather dry, but at the same time, it's the only way my mind works, when everything is neat and logical, no weird unicorns allowed.
The other explanation is that the random little facts are coincidental and are just planted in the original story just in case. Perhaps there were other random things that didn't come true?
And the other thing is, she may have struck gold in your story, but what is the over all track record?
I dunno. I'm also skeptical. In the end, even if it were supernatural or fate, doesn't mean anyone on Earth would be able to see it.
Who knows, this was just an isolated incident that stood out amongst many others that were quite plainly nonsense.
I'm not saying that I would put any major life decisions in this woman's hands, but it was something done for fun when I was a teenager and the info she gave me was way more correct than incorrect. I don't know how or why she said what she did- just thought it would be an interesting addition to the discussion!
There were things that she said that haven't happened, but the majority of the reading was overwhelmingly correct in terms of present and future.
I also figure there must be some explanation that means she isn't in fact a medium or a psychic. Damned if I know, though.
I've heard stories like yours pop up so much too, so it's certainly an interesting subject! Would be good to know the tricks they use (assuming they are tricks) hehe...
There is a little of both in our lives, depending on IF we find our life path and are living it. Many people live in a fog and do not listen to their soul. That is the connection we must make, or many choose not too. Free Will. We are given a choice to continue staying in the dark or wake up into the light. It's not a judgment, just a choice. Simple.
Therefore, fate depending on choices we make and others can change. Luck can happen by chance. LOL! Some say "luck," whilst others say right place, right time.
People like myself have proven (to our self) that we can manifest, make it happen. It's not an unknown concept, however, if we happen to meet people that do not make their proper choice and let's say go to the "dark side" this can totally mess up fate, luck, manifestation. Does this make sense? If not, carry on! Hee Hee
Thank you for opening up to comments and thoughts!
eagle
:)
And thank you for the comments and thoughts. I love to hear what people have to say about these topics that have so much to talk about.
I've heard a definition of luck that I find interesting and agreeable to my usual thoughts, which is the ability to make the most out of an opportunity when it presents itself. And I would add that it is also
I mean, that's my definition of self-made luck, and I try to live by it somehow. I talk to a lot of people, make a lot of friends and socialise whenever I can. Whenever people ask me to go to a certain place or to talk to certain people, I almost always do it and I refuse to reject certain things that I would otherwise not have access to if I were lazy.
And I've found, in general, that taking those words to heart is a very effective way to get the things that we want or alternatives to them. Proactiveness, it's usually called, I think, not sure.
This is the great thing about philosophy, people can openly discuss topic after topic and go with the flow.
I have also heard of that definition of "luck," it is an interesting concept.
The self made luck you describe sounds very much like manifestation, but just a different phrasing.
It's good you get out and socialize, meet new people that is what this life is for. Hopefully, you get out
as often as possible and get to travel the world. Everyone deserves to see as much as possible, it opens up the mind and the word you used is perfect for that. Proactive.
Sadly I don't go out much. The crime waves are growing in my city and it's very dangerous most of the time. What's more, there's no cash, only wire transfers and cards, and taxi drivers don't accept either, so I can't really move around the city much unless I use the subway (which is crammed and dangerous).
And about travelling, aah, that's another thing that I can't do due to the situation of the country. I'm trying to solve it and Steemit is one of the ways that I've found that can help me.
I also think that everyone should travel a lot and see as much as possible, but as is often said, "not everyone is born equal". Many of the people who come from the lowest classes (a part of the population that is savagely increasing in numbers) have been decreasingly able to move around and get proper education, so they most of the time think that they can only resort to repetitive jobs that offer no respite or time to think or travel and that's their lives until they can't work anymore and their children take over.
I wish travelling around the world were a more accessible hobby. The times I've done it I've felt such an incomparable pleasure that I've been yearning for years to be able to leave again, even as a backpacker, to see the world around us.
I am sorry to hear that, you mentioned going out with your friends so I had hoped that were true.
I am also very sad to hear the city is very dangerous and you are not safe to go out. I'll come save you! :)
Holy cow, that is amazing to hear about no cash but is a common thing here in USA too. The preference has become the cards and transfers. The cabs In NYC take the cards and so do any car service, here in CO too.
How dangerous is the subway? Now I have to do research, I wonder how bad it is in comparison to NYC.
I will do a research project now and find out.
Yes, I agree about generations in poverty. For some reason, I thought you were not in that category. People do leave their homes to buy food and go to a park or something, no?
YES! I totally can see you as a backpacker!! I was never brave enough myself, but I have traveled alone.
Blessings.
Freedom is the highest virtue there is. Without freedom what is there? Reality is an illusion, for the many things are One Thing. But if everything is One Thing, where is freedom? Freedom is the first distortion away from the One Thing, the first Act. It's the primal distortion from which all other distortions arise, each distortion contributing to the illusion. Remove the illusion, remove free will, and all would be frozen still, all of eternity wrapped up in the One Thing.
Sounds like a religion, does it come from a religion?
No. It's philosophy. Definitely not a religion. If everything is One Thing, what do you worship? Yourself?
Dunno, not all religions are about worshipping. The key point is dogmatic belief. But yes, everything is one thing, since everything is all-encompassing by definition. I still wish to understand what you mean by your words.
Hmm. Everything is interconnected, is all One thing. Separation is an illusion. Many-ness is an illusion. You are everything you see. It is you. I am you. You are me. We are One Thing. But we go on believing we are separate. I think an excellent source for this philosophical idea, is the Tao Te Ching. I enjoy the Tao precisely because it is not dogmatic.
Ooo let's twist the quoted definition even more:
Yup. Fate all over the place with this definition.
The essence of this question appears to be more about whether there's a puppeteer or not. But in the end, the perceived world seems indistinguishable from, or at least is consistent with, the world that has no puppeteer.
And also given that a human can only perceive one timeline, one could say that fate exists and is predetermined and not be able to demonstrate otherwise. That's a fun part of this.
You know what's another fun thing to explore though? Bell's theorem which has us guessing how perceived nondeterministic phenomena can be explained, and in the metaphysical section spawns some wild theories about the nature of fate. One of which is if course that there's "no free will".
Aaaaaaah, I forgot to mention something important! Quantum physics! According to my big brother, a particle can have many possible properties, but only when it reaches a critical point does it become "fixed". This would imply that there can be many futures and, through quantum hazards and time paradoxy thingies, even a mind all-knowing of the present circumstance would not be able to predict future events.
And I haven't heard about Bell's theorem, I'll put it in a new tab and read it in a bit, since I'm way too sleepy and think I'm going to sleep for a few hours. Dying.
Ok, I didn't sleep, and I came back to read Bell's Theorem. And I didn't understand anything of what the Wikipedia article said, sorry, but I watched a video that explained things in a very understandable manner:
I loved the vid and I'll keep watching the series, since there's apparently something that might disprove quantum mechanics.
Wooo, deterministic quantum mechanics!
Imagination can only take us so far, as does fate, and luck mostly is a process of thought. Do we have free will? I feel sometimes that we have the free will to choose between the path of least resistance to our dreams and best outcome, and choosing to go against it in some kind of resistance. Has it all been laid out for us? Yes, I think so, but as a path we can choose to follow to a destination we are best suited to receive...
Well, I guess we can choose to stop and not follow the path, but then that would be the path, oh no! 🙃
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Yayyy, a podcast of my own!
I've wrestled with this question many times. Every time I think about it my conclusion is different but your post has made me think about different aspects of this debate. I honestly think this is as hard to define as "nature vs nurture". Thanks for sharing your views.
Well, nature vs. nurture is not really a debate on whether one is true and the other is false. They're both true and we just have to study what the extent is for each of the forces. And no probs, Artemis! Nice name. <3
Fate does exist and free will is an illusion.
Fate is essentially something that is going to happen in the future it's fixed, however free will influences that fate as well, because fate isn't just one fixed scenario it's a compilation of different fixed scenario that will happen.
That's unless our minds have some power over quantum mechanical relationships and we have souls that have strict control over our minds. If those really unlikely facts are true, then we could then start to doubt the existence of "fate" as you decribed it (just the way things are going to be in the future)