I'm going to do a little investigation into the down voters who do so for purely dislike, and other reasons as well as their connections to other accounts and popular "services".
After 13 months I finally succeeded in getting hit by the down vote brigade. An army of people all voted at the same time on my recent post pointing out possible issues with Randowhale, and accounts like it. Primarily that is due to who is fronting those accounts, not due to what the accounts themselves do. I described it like the bully bringing candy to school.
That post was up to $55 or so before the bot votes hit it and dragged it down to $0 and -16 votes at one point. I had BernieSanders who is linked to all of these bots, and to Randowhale call me a butthurt old man in some comments before the down vote began. I actually wasn't butthurt, I was just inspired by reading posts by other people. I am not worried about money, and I am not butthurt. I do care what happens on steem though and I tend to always go head firsts at perceived "bullies".
I don't generally spend a lot of time thinking about BernieSanders, DonaldTrump, Randowhale, Engagement, TheCyclist, Danknugs, steemed, steemroller, lovelace, itsascam, dashpaymag, zztop, ledzeppelin, nextgencrypto, complexring, the hordes of badger bots, and many other accounts. I don't go out of my way to post about the ever growing "complex ring" of accounts passing funds through places such as TheGhost and bouncing in and out of various accounts. It is actually a pretty impressive shell game.
Now I am interested, now I have looked at puzzle pieces and I suspect there may be some interesting revelations if anyone bothers to look. So I will be one of those that looks. I do want to do a proper investigation and post some blogs with what I find. I'll do what I can to show the fragmented kraken and possible interconnections.
If you have information you wish me to look into related to this feel free to send it to me.
I don't intend to attack anyone. I intend to just show what is transparent on the steem blockchain. In cases where I am speculating I will be sure to state that is what I am doing.
I would not be surprised to see any such posts and possibly even this one down voted to oblivion. That is what they do. It doesn't have to be spam, plagiarism, or abuse with these people. It simply has to be something they don't like, someone they don't like, or someone who challenges them.
To do a proper investigation will take a bit of time. I spent a few hours doing some digging today and as I dug I kept finding more and more paths I'd have to follow. He has been a busy person. I am still not convinced it is just one person involved in these things, but it could be, and even if it isn't there definitely is at least one person who seems to be the most influential.
Why do this? Community is important on steemit. We cannot rely on code to solve everything. A lot of that is on us. If you whine about down voting and then you use the services of some of the greatest down voters then you really shouldn't be whining. Using their services simply makes them more and more powerful.
They have been countered before by people with more power and they didn't like it. They've gone cockroach like and spread all over the steem community, and they've found ways to quickly POWER UP across multiple accounts.
I wonder how many people using things like Randowhale truly know some of the things the person that made it has professed on steemit. If they did know these things would they continue to use it, or would they not? The optimist in me says they might stop, the pessimist in me says that greed often wins out.
I won't tell you what type of people we are dealing with, I'll investigate, show transfers, and show their own dialog to let them show you who they are.
The rest will be up to you. If you ignore it after the investigation then I will too.
Here is some evidence that may help you with your investigation @dwinblood.
https://steemit.com/abuse/@jparty/the-real-story-behind-the-war-against-noganoo-screenshots-of-berniesanders-abuse-towards-noganoo
Thanks. I'll check it out.
you please follow me and i will upvote you and you same will do please...
It is brave of you to take on this responsibility, it would be certainly useful for the community to put to light the information gathered from your investigation.
I wish you luck @dwinblood
This post will get attention that is for sure. To be honest I don't know a lot about the downvoters as of yet. I do appreciate what ur about to do and am really curious to ur findings. As of how I know u so far, u have only good intentions as to what happens to this platform. Ur probably gonna piss off some people with this investigation, but most likely will get some very powerful friends for it as well. Good luck, and Thank You!
I have some powerful friends, but they tend to try to remain hands off. This is why those that abuse the down vote can get away with it when they too are powerful. Those powerful enough to truly do something usually don't, and when they do we hear massive complaining that they got involved.
I can get that. For one, downvoting only gives a loss to everyone involved. Secondly, with some of the most influencial people of Steemit together, things can get very messy..
His BernieSanders account was the 7th most powerful account on steemit at one point... he has since powered it down and moved that power around and into many other places. He had other accounts that were powerful when he was 7th and had all of those been combined he may have been overall more powerful than 7th.
Now it is scattered across many accounts and he is just getting bigger every time someone pays Randowhale for a vote.
He is truly powerful. I've only scratched the surface so far it truly is web like.
Berniesanders is randowhale? Honestly I don't know anything about berniesanders, nor about the people behind randowhale. I am currently an user of randowhale, and not sure a service like this is really a bad thing. As long as it brings a profit to the user of the bot. Something as self-voting seems far more harmful to me. That being said. What the profit is being used for, if it is truly for things I cannot stand behind, then I might stop using it.
Let's put it this way. Someone can provide a good service, but if the profits go on to fund a hostile actor then is it worth it?
Account transfers and other comments on the blockchain seem to support that yes Randowhale is a product of the same person known as Berniesanders. Though most of the money transfers actually go to nextgencrypto. Looking at the money moving around as when it get's web like. Keep in mind it could also be multiple people colluding among their accounts in fact that would further maximize profits so one person didn't have to pay as much attention to everything going on.
Well that is what I ment with "what the profit is being used for." I still don't really know a lot about these people either. Not that me stopping to use a service like randowhale is gonna make much of a difference (except for my own morals). But if there really is some bad stuff going on there, more awareness through the platform and action from the bigger whales will be required to make a real difference.
Randowhale itself is not bad. It's pretty cool. I even used it myself a couple of times.
I just realized that it was giving more power to someone who has no problems throwing a down vote against things he doesn't like to strip them of all earning potential. I kind picture some guys standing outside of a business with baseball bats and saying "you can't shop here".
Randowhale itself is pretty brilliant. It also looks like it is a pretty good Return on Investment (for Randowhale, not as much on the users... but that may change)
Yet I find myself wondering if by using it we are making it easier to hire even more proverbial thugs.
@randowhale @Berniesanders @nextgencrypto are all the same person. You can see when bernie needs to downvote someone he uses a lot of accounts.
Yes, I know this. There are quite a few additional accounts as well. I am working on trying to put that together. @engagement, and @thecyclist are as welll in terms of larger accounts. There are others that are likely to be him, but no guarantee. I've been building a spreadsheet of transactions ignoring most of the smaller ones and will use that to build a post soon with some visual charts, flow charts, etc. It is a lot of data and it takes quite a few hours to dig through. I am doing it manually so I can notice things, toss some things, and decide what is interesting. He also has contributed funds to several projects over time, so while I dislike his down voting stuff he dislikes a great deal, he does do some good things as well. I don't actually consider @randowhale a bad thing. It's a good idea. He has also donated to @curie, @steemcleaners, and @steemservices a pretty sizeable chunk of steem. It is a fraction of the amount he has made and spread around, but he still did it, and that is a good and admirable thing.
I am new to Steemit and am largely unaware of these issues. Thank you for bringing them to the forefront. I am looking forward to your future posts. Followed and promoted :)
If you were a newbie, I would try to warn you. However, you've been around for long enough I am sure you know how this tends to end.
It could be interesting,...
Yeah it might be messy. If it gets too messy oh well. I have a few other accounts I am not using. I know the tricks they have used to try to remain unseen. I can use them too if they insist on smashing this account. I won't ever have their power level, but I can still play the cockroach game. It also likely won't turn out WELL for me. Someone has to speak up. However, like those other cases you referred to I don't intend to call them names, ad hominem attack them, etc. I just plan to show information and let everyone know where I got it from.
Thanks for doing this. I value your work into this investigation.
Up front, I'd like to welcome you to the BotWars.
I know we shall be victorious!
So glad to see you looking into this - I think you are one of the few people on Steemit capable of working all this out!
I knew this was going on but couldn't even begin to understand it all...
I hope that because you are high profile you can avoid being flagged to oblivion - you have some nerve and I hope it all goes OK
Think this is a great idea @dwinblood and agree it is important and needs to be done so that everyone knows and understands better. The connections can be quite meaningful in some instances. Blockchain should be about Open Awareness & Open Understanding.
Seems we as a community have uncovered some connections we have not liked and/or found of consequence in one way or another. Like you I am not hear to say anyone or anything is good or bad.
Blockchain is about openness and such connections should be out in the open as opposed to being hidden and mysterious. Look forward to the information you and others find. Am sure oehrs may follow suit and help us all have a better understanding as many of us are curious to understand more.
An extension of blockchain transaprency is a great idea!
Best,
Good luck, and best wishes. They do downvote as a group, sometimes simply because 'everyone else thinks its spam, so I just go along with them'. Sorry, that is a paraphrase from a recent post that I read where the person engaged in a mass down voting of an undesirable steemian, then begged the community's sympathy when he struck back at her. I only have sympathy for someone who has not down-voted other people if and when they are attacked. If they join a group attack, well, what goes around, comes around, and I don't care if the person you hit first was a nasty snot-hole.
I imagine you will get hit hard for doing this, @dwinblood, because that is the form censorship takes on Steemit. Again, good luck. We'll be here to re-upvote you and restore your reputation if needed.
So far I am fine as my reputation is better than theirs. They can only steal my potential earnings. They have to have a better reputation than me to damage my reputation and so far that isn't a problem.
Community is incredibly important here on Steemit! It's kind of sad the damage to the whole that some people are willing to cause just to make their own slice of the pie bigger, even if it spoils their piece, too. Greed is a terrible thing. We need more people interested in more than just their own pockets to help Steemit grow. Thanks for taking such a huge burden on yourself on behalf of the community!
You are right and if these things will last longer then it will be dangerous for the community. Computers (bots) can do a lot of interesting calculations but if those calculations will be used for productive purpose of society (in this case curation right content) (in this case curation right content) then it will be good otherwise it will be like Cold War and at the end of the day average people's hurt and nothing will be gained to society as whole. Please do a little bit effort to make real money by creating and curating real content . Don't try to get rich quick soon because if do it will have dire consequences.
We certainly don't want to make the rich get richer and giving them more power to downvote, but what is the proposed solution for the contents not getting seen? And those who need to be given a chance for a spot on the trending page. I'm sure if only the whales get to check @ocd for the undervalued posts of more talented writers that need to replace those superficial travel bloggers and advertisements there?
Some people down here live off steemit btw. And there are a lot of travelers like me who travel on a steem budget by cycling, hitchhiking, staying with the locals (instead of the fancy resorts). These are the more inspiring travel bloggers who should be seen instead of those companies and the same faces advertising 'luxury travel', encouraging more people to slave to their jobs to afford the dream?
Now if only the whales could see those content instead of voting for the same people or their friends, then there's no need for bots. If only the system will improve the new tab, the views and put quality content to the top.
But I don't see the difference between those who have money to invest in whalebots to power up and those people who buy steem to power up?
After all, the whales have too many mouths to feed and the minnows found some temporary solution, and just decided to become independent and promote their own post. They were just investing their money to get their posts be seen, it's not the others fault. It's just the system.
But steemit is still in beta, and we have high hopes here.
Well ideally we don't want to be focusing on the whales and keeping them whales. There are only so many of them and if we keep focusing on them it'll make it harder to create more. With Hardfork 19 it is a little tougher for them to just spend votes, and the number of people on steemit is increasing.
So really the best tactic is just to focus on making a good blog, writing about what you enjoy and hopefully getting a following of people. Ultimately focusing on the whales is focusing on a small group of people that have more and more people that they are being divided against.
Also being a whale doesn't mean decent. So yeah they will support their own friends, and such and they should be able to. Yet do we want to follow them around hoping they will notice us and in the process keep giving them more and more power while we try to get their attention.
For me that is a resounding no.
There is a discoverability issue with steemit but, as you state it is in beta and I'm hoping communities and some other initiatives can help with that.
I could not more strongly support your analysis of pandering.
I think the possession of substantial holdings (whether SP, any other currency, or of any goods or services) tends to focus the interests of the possessors, as well as reflect their interests. To an extent, this explains interest in luxury goods and services.
It is both part of the reason that SP weights VP, and an artifact of that weighting that trending articles show such content, and posts not focused on wealth tend not to trend. On a platform as transparently based on wealth as Steemit, it is preposterous to expect posts not focused on wealth to perform competitively.
While I very much like the Steemit I post on, it isn't the posts that focus on wealth I most enjoy, or pay much attention to, but those which reflect my own interests (not money). Unfortunately, just as in the real world, I have had to buckle down and consider how wealth has impacted, and will drive, Steemit, and this has brought me here, as well.
Frankly, I could not agree with you more strongly that jobs are slavery. Work is not a job. Too many conflate and confuse the two. I love work, and particularly like fixing and making stuff for people, so am a carpenter. I don't have a job, but get to work anyway =D.
Oddly, I find that I strongly agree with one of the most infamous mottos ever to disgrace honest work, "Arbeit Macht Frei", which notoriously stood over the gates of Auschwitz, IIRC. Unfortunately the desperate slavery that was promoted by that motto is the utter antithesis of my own work, and I am left shaking my head at how propaganda can deprive people that wisely consider the source of a statement, and react to the statement based only on that information.
If the Antichrist said 'love is good', that would not make love bad!
I would, however, urge you to consider how bots curating degrades human agency, as we are entering a world on Steemit, and generally, where AI and bots are imposing inhuman (by definition) values on human intercourse. Bots are of inestimable utility, but their opinions are vapid and insipid, IMHO.
Edit: atrocious grammar
There is something about craftsmanship that clears your head. You are thinking about how to make something not about all the abstract problems of the world. i sometimes jokingly refer to that as "Arbeit macht frei", ofc there is also something Marx said about "Entfremdung der Arbeit" also really interesting concept.
This is a huuuuge (Trump voice) problem in our modern society. An idea should not get value because of who said it.
I also don't mind bots. Maybe there need to be rules or etiquettes regarding bots, but a bot is in the end just a tool.
Not all jobs are slavery indeed. For example, steemit has become a bit of a job, doing what I am passionate about - travel & writing. The reality is that I could not go back to being a corporate slave again and sacrifice my spirit. But if these votebots are becoming the corporate I escaped from in the past, then I'm not going to further encourage bad behavior.
There's a difference between those people who make a lot of money on the trending page, and someone down here just trying to put food on the table, hoping that her craft would be noticed someday. I'm not being sponsored by those fancy resorts and stuff. It's 3-hour masterpiece undervalued. I'm also speaking on behalf of other undervalued writers out there, not getting seen, not the fault of others, but it is just the system at the moment.
I am not carrying a knapsack full of special provisions, and not part of the tribe flattered by the media. I live a simple life, traveling w/o bills and living off my savings. Yeah, steemit is the change I want to see in the world - do what we love, get rewarded, be free to travel the world, live anywhere, free ourselves from state control, why not?
I'm doing what I can to contribute t the community through my writings, spread awareness, promote budget travel, promote minimalist life, expose issues... But I'll stay positive. I'm still new.
I have utterly depleted my VP and need to recharge it again =/
Followed, so I can see your posts more often. I also am somewhat nomadic, and I bet I can learn from you. At least following only inundates me, rather than depleting my VP =)
Followed you back. I wish I can sleep too much and type too little... ;)
LOL Sometimes I wish I could eschew sleep altogether, but then I reflect on the dangers of Meth =p
Lol, sleep deprivation is enough, like a drug effect on me.