Uncertainty for delegated applications and services
I almost don't want to bring this up in regards to what is happening on the Steem blockchain with the witness at the moment, but I guess it has to be and I haven't really seen or heard much discussion about it, yet I am sure there has been somewhere. I have noticed @steemcleaners (who I follow) being much more active than my memory has seen them before, and of course, there is a reason for this. While the Steemit Inc stake was meant to be non-voting, it has been used to support the blockchain through delegation to quite a few applications as well as protect the chain from pool abuse.
This is in MVests, so you can half the amount to get an approximate of the Steem delegation. The last four are exchanges.
@spaminator - 5457.084
@dtube - 4090.769
@oracle-d - 4040.787
@steemcleaners - 3068.075
@steempress-io - 2033.154
@steemhunt - 2033.154
@fundition - 2031.96
@tasteem - 2031.96
@busy.pay - 1023.794
@esteemapp - 1022.693
@mack-bot - 515.745
@blockbrothers - 151.529
@steemitboard - 60.549
@bittrex - 20.368
@poloniex - 20.368
@deepcrypto8 - 4.013
@binance-hot - 0.401
There was always the discussion as to whether the ninja-mined stake should be used at all, but this usage was generally considered acceptable, especially the usage to limit the spam and plagiarism on the chain, Spaminator, Steemcleaners, Mack-bot.
The others are applications and interfaces that use their delegation to reward their user base and the difference between having that delegation and not is quite clear. However, it was always meant to be that the support would be for the applications to get off the ground and then find their own feet and support, but with the bear market being what it was, this didn't really go to plan.
The problem that faces all of them now is that with the stake changing ownership and into the hands of someone that doesn't understand (nor seem to want to) anything about Steem at all, the delegation will likely end, sooner rather than later. This will have a fundamental effect on not only the applications, but the entire ecosystem.
While some of the community want to get rid of downvotes because either they think they are mean and hurts feelings or, they are trying to protect their own staked circle jerks, they do not know what else goes on here. If the Steemcleaners team led by @anyx didn't do their jobs, the chain would be a fucking mess and it would have an effect on user experience, including that of those who want to remove downvotes.
A chain full of spam and reward pool abuse is not nice, but do you know what is worse? A chain full of spam and reward pool abuse with no way to combat it at all. You see, removing downvotes doesn't just mean that users don't flag each other, it means that 4 years of abuse fighting experience gets removed with it. You might not full appreciate how ugly that looks, but I have been here long enough and delved into enough of the content garbage dumps, that I know what it could be, minus Steemcleaners.
However, without a delegation, they can't do what they do effectively and that means, it suddenly becomes up to us. There are plenty of people who don't want to use their downvotes and don't see them as necessary, but take away that delegation and see how fast the spammers and scammers get to work. Will you start downvoting for a better user experience that supports real users?
Ownership and responsibility of experience, remember?
And this goes for the applications too, the ones that people like to use daily and don't mind getting the support from when it arrives. For example, @dtube has a 2 million delegation from Steemit Inc and it has been able to attract good an d consistent users because of it. The difference is for example that @threespeak has been able to do the same with a large stake, but that stake is private through @theycallmedan, the founder of the application. This means that they do not lose the delegation, regardless of what Steemit Inc does.
Private support is a massive advantage in this situation as it means that they can stand on their own two feet. However, they are also have a great deal more skin in the game when it comes to the potential for loss, as while both have had to develop their interfaces at a cost, if Steem goes to zero, the privately invested will lose a lot more than the ones who have got "government" funding.
There are obviously other applications there that do not necessarily have the same potential for large private equity funding through delegation, which means it will be up to the community to decide the future of these applications. Are you going to use them even if there is no chance of an upvote from them? Will they be able to survive if their curation returns are slashed?
The dynamics and complication caused by this stake means that there are many, many moving parts in play, and while the idea of getting rid of it completely might be attractive, it is going to be highly distruptive to many users who are only still here because they are getting support indirectly from it through applications. Plus, the applications who are funded through Steemit Inc delegation are going to suddenly find themselves with very little stake backing them.
This might be a good thing long-term of course, as it means that applications will have to learn to fend for themselves like any startup, meaning attract investors. This could lead to better quality applications and continued development upon them. Yet, the short-term view is going to be highly challenging and it is not only going to affect the application owners, but also the thousands of users who participate daily on this blockchain as they will not only have to find new avenues of support, they will also have to contend with a lot more spam and scam as the @steemcleaners crew will have potentially, severely reduced capabilities.
As said, I don't really want to bring this kind of stuff up, but at the same time, it has to be thought about by all those affected, which means, all of us.
You don't know or appreciate what you've got til it's gone.
Taraz
[ a Steem original ]
Might mean all the eyeballs go to Communities, policed by their admins and mods.
Yep, this is what I figure. That'll mean that it would also make sense to close the Steem tap.
If Steemcleaners lost its delegation it would be a true forward step in decentralization. I hate downvotes, but at least downvotes from a real invested person comes out of their limited power. Downvote power was never suppose to be so concentrated into such a small amount of accounts for downvoting.
True decentralization of the voting system involves downvotes being a bottom-up system and not a top-down one. That's called tyranny.
No, but without the EIP incentives, people wouldn't downvote at all, as we saw for the first three and a half years. However, most people use their downvotes in a very narrow area, whereas Steemcleaners seek out the abuse that is designed to hide out of sight from the normal users. While people want the reward pool to go to real contributors, including themselves, most people aren't interested fighting the abuse themselves. You for example flagged this post for whatever reason you chose to, instead of looking for plagiarism - This is the behavior of the average person.
I downvoted it out of no issue with you, but being that I strongly disagree with you on this I'd prefer it not trending.
I understand your argument, its a fair argument. But the problem with giving people power is that, historically, they abuse it. This is why I believe downvote power should not be concentrated by allowed to be whatever it will.
Do you hate that bible youtube spammer? Me too. That's why while I generally do not downvote people, when I saw one of the bots spam comments was going to get $0.05 I made sure it didn't.
We need to police in a decentralized fashion and if people don't care about an issue enough to downvote it, then nothing needs to be done about it. That's what we're all on blockchains for!
As said, this is the behavior of the average person, downvoting based on the opinion of the topic. I am not complaining about the downvote, it was just an example of what people do.
Downvote power isn't concentrated, everyone has it - this is what the EIP has incentivized even further. Previously, it was only the Steemcleaners group that would downvote without having to worry about the "cost" to their rewards, as that was their job. After the EIP, everyone gets the power to downvote - few do.
There used to be a circle of abuse from one account with 8000 socks all over the chain... most people don't even know about it, like much of the abuse on the platform. Not seeing it doesn't mean it doesn't need to be dealt with - like most forms of pollution, much of the abuse is invisible to the naked eye.
No one here is going to use their own SP to combat spam, come on. This is steem, people use their votes for voting up themselves and their friends. No one is going to use their vote power for the good of community. If those delegations go away spam is going to take over, big time
Well, everyone has 2.5 free downvotes thanks to the EIP, perhaps they should start learning where to use them :)
The best thing for that stake is that it would be sent to null. Or have a programed slow drip liquidity release which was set at something that was not significant compared to the annual inflation.
I would like to see it gone, one way or another. It has been a spectre and burden for far too long. A burn would make a nice dent in supply.
Yes, that is indeed a problem for projects that have been relying on delegated Steem. I don't think either that we should rush into a downvote less economy without having any alternative to fight plagiarism or spam. But also the current status quo with free downvotes is IMHO a status that has is dark sides, as it brought the issue of downvote abusing.
I think a lot of the downvote abuse is cultural, as in it wasn't available before and now people have been finding their feet with it. When it comes to "dislikes" on other platforms like reddit, it isn't an issue. The problem on Steem is that there is an economy, and people often think that once a vote is placed they own the value of it, without considering the 7-day payout. There has to be a negotiation period due to the shared nature of the reward pool. Given time, I think the process would normalize and most of the darkside would disappear.
곰돌이가 @jayplayco님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.010을 보팅해서 $0.032을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 7591번 $101.083을 보팅해서 $102.648을 구했습니다. @gomdory 곰도뤼~
I think losing misterdelegations stake is going to hurt in the beginning, and I guess we’ll be seeing many more 3speak videos :)
yes, it is going to be painful and potentially deadly for some projects. It was always going to be the case that people will post where they have the best chance of rewards, which means those who have powereed up will have stronger voices once that N-M stake is gone.
Hi @tarazkp
Good point. I never thought about this issue.
So are you saying the delegations are still in effect now?
I know that Flags are a hot button topic and that downvoting is specifically forbidden in certain Steem-Engine communities like SCT. I think it was also mentioned at SteemFest in Thailand.
I think you hit the nail on the head that there are scams and other undesirable actors who would detract from the user experience and result in loss of Stake to many users due to theft, plus contribute to reward pool abuse. So I agree these services are important for the community. But the existence of what is considered unfair or unreasonable flagging has created a group of vocal opponents of downvotes.
I think the community would be much more accepting of this necessity if there was a easy way to file a grievance against flags. And a group similar to steemcleaners devoted to rapid resolution.
I know that might be complicated to do, but this is crypto...it appears that anything can happen, so perhaps this too?
✍️
Yes, they are still in effect.
The funny thing is, that SCT are not really an SE community, they used the token to sell Steem votes :)
I don't think most people really know what Steemcleaners does, as most people don't spend their time looking or thinking about how much trash there is, or could be.
Yes, it could be that a similar group forms anyway - but it requires stake backing.
As I said, we'll have to figure out a way to put more money collectivelly to develop Steem and other projects, we can't just survive with SPS.
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SPS won't be enough for this by a long shot.
Not sure about that. Using SPS to pay for delegations on a leasing market you can get quite a bit.
Let's take anti-spam as an example because the amount is large, about 8000 MV, or 4M steem. Last I looked leasing markets were about 10%/year so this is 400K Steem per year. At current prices this is about 80K SBD, while SPS total funding is about 500K SBD/year. So it seems numerically feasible.
Whether stakeholders would vote for it is not certain but having stakeholders make that choice seems better than some unaccountable person at Steemit who didn't even pay attention to the recommendations of the committee they set up to make the delegations more sensible and accountable.
Ok, I just did the simple math in my head, so thanks for adding clarity.
Wholeheartedly agree. There is a very good opportunity here to make this place perform much better, although it is going to be painful.
A few of those apps should now have their delegations revoked IMO.
The ones flagging are essential,
I would like to see application for delegations become more open.
I think there was a process starting for applying for delegations, I am not sure how far it went though. I know that there were adjustments made. The problem now is of course, the Tron team have no idea what goes on here at Steem.
The way it went is the committee made its recommendations and then Steemit ignored them.
This continues the long history of unaccountable and poorly-managed delegations being a black spot (one of many unfortunately) on how Steem has worked out over the past four years.
A few years ago I tried to put forward a proposal for better delegation process through Utopian, it didn't get much traction :)
Well at least now, things are coming to the fore.
That should come back. Just make a proposal page similar to the dao (pay justin 9 out of the 10SBD fee to grovel for delegations =), people can vote, Steemit can veto against funding (10 sbd is returned if vetod, but not if a min isn't reached). On that note, a polling feature there would also be nice.
I don't think it will see a fast enough return for him :D
This post is very enlightening! I suspect that the new, well funded members on the blockchain might not fully appreciate the capabilities of the Steem ecosystems. Maybe this will help them understand why we defend our systems so strongly.
They would have to spend time here understanding the economics, something they seem unwilling to do as they want to implement a 1-3 day powerdown, without recognizing the problems to the mechanics of that.
Indeed. It makes you wonder about the viability of their own network...
Yes it does. Or, the care that they have for this particular investment into Steem.
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