RE: The World is Not a Box
Not to worry @carlnash ...
"If these questions are offensive feel free to not answer - my intent is not to offend."
... I don't view your comment here as offensive. Nor do I believe it is your intent to be offensive. Being an advocate for openly discussing differences, my only real “rules of engagement” are that they are based on civility and respect.
Given the scope of the topic you are raising, I’ll respond in bullet form, as I could probably write a post for each one, but it should capture the essence, for any follow-up comments / questions you may care to make:
- You link your question about how a Christian might view peace and violence with a detailed reference to the U.S. While you correctly cite a portion of our historic “Pledge of Allegiance,” most Christians in America today view our country as “post Christian,” i.e. similar to the history of some countries in Europe … My point is I am not clear whether you are truly asking for my answer as a Christian? Or as an American? They are different to me … Given how much of your detail is linked to the U.S., I will respond more as an American …
- Your example of Afghanistan: Appears to contain at its heart the idea of a “proportional response.” On the surface, I would say you and I would most likely find at least some agreement on this. I and many I know were not in favor of remaining in Afghanistan. Nor in ever going into Iraq in the first place. In both cases, America was engaging in “nation building,” i.e. trying to change the form of governance of another people. Bad idea …
- Civilian loss of life is an inescapable consequence of war. I do believe America makes a considerable effort to minimize this vs. plenty of examples all over the world of terrorists seeking to maximize it (particularly those who identify themselves with the Islamic faith). Any “rogue elements” within our military who are found guilty of dishonoring this are dealt with according to law.
- Inside America, all of my long life I have heard reference to America serving as “the world’s policeman.” So, yes we are heavily armed. The U.N. as a substitute for “peacekeeping” efforts around the world is viewed by many Americans as uhhh … “less than optimum” … 😉
So, there you go for now. A response. Whether it meets your standard for a ”thoughtful reply,” I’ll leave to you to answer. If you choose to respond @carlnash, it would be helpful to me to know how you would describe your political philosophy and what country you live in. 😊
P.S. Thank you for the follow-up support of @mimismartypants’ post! 👍
First, cheers indeed for taking my comment in good stride and good spirits, and responding thoughtfully. I actually meant more as a true Christian than an American. What I was getting at, crudely, was a difference I perceive between the teachings of Christ and the current beliefs held by adherents to most strains of American Christianity. I was pointing at what I believe to be a hypocrisy (and of course, no one wants to be called a hypocrite, which is why I was cautious about saying what I was saying, and didn't want to offend you, and may have beat around the bush too vaguely to even make it clear what I was getting at! :).
Proportionate response" and "inescapable consequence of war" and indeed "collateral damage" would find no refuge in the teachings of Christ. No amount of rationalizing about why US gunships have to go here to shoot missiles nor bombers have to go here to drop bombs would get Jesus to be on "our side". No amount of decrying "terrorist" attacks while approving of unmanned drone assassination missions would fly with the J guy. WWJD? Well, certainly not WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction).
The teachings of Christ are super clear. Love your enemy as your self. Turn the other cheek. Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King vibed on this same level. That is a religion that does not promote violence.
I guess what I am saying is it is really easy for an American Christian to point the finger at Islam and say, this is a faith that promotes violence. While at the same time, living in a glass house that is not likely to be bombed in the lifetime of said Christian, nor was it bombed in the lifetime of his father, nor will it likely be bombed in the lifetime of his sons. And while the glass house that is inhabited by Muslims is in fact and currently being bombed by the government of the American Christians. And while the glass house inhabited by the Muslims has born witness to military operations by the government of the American Christians in the lifetime of the Muslims' fathers that overthrew Muslim governments and supported Muslim dictatorships for reasons that had nothing to do with "Democracy", "Freedom", nor even "Policing the world".
The proof is in the puddin' - to whatever extent Islam is a religion that promotes violence, American Christians would do well to acknowledge that Christianity is evidently a religion that also promotes violence. And would do well to ask, how has American Christianity come so far from the teachings of Christ that American Christians are totaly okay with what the American Government is doing when it drops bombs that kill civilians while maybe or maybe not hitting a target of "tactical importance"...
I don't want to paint with too broad a brush here, and of course not all American Christians condone what the American military machine does. But the big picture in my opinion is that American Christianity by and large is tied up with American Patriotism and has warped the teachings of Christ into a philosophy that justifies the US spending more on death, destruction, and the instruments thereof than any other country on earth (both in absolute and per capita terms). "Policing the world" is not actually Christian in my belief, and I guess my question really boils down to - is it truly Christian in your belief? Deep down? As a Christian, you are okay with the US spending more on missiles and bombs and tanks and fighter jets than on the welfare and education of its own citizens? And do you think that a religion whose practitioners are okay with such an expenditure could be anything but a religion that condones violence?
Violence begets violence. It is not the teachings of Islam that lead to suicide bombings nor the teachings of Christ that lead to drone assassinations. American Christian violence begets Muslim violence. Muslim violence begets American Christian violence. Christ understood this, I am just not so sure Christians do.
Here I must apologize for the super duper long reply and hijacking the original post's comments LOL
@carlgnash and @roleerob opening a whole new can of worms.
Speaking as a subjective 3rd partner with no loyalty to America or emotional attachment I feel the following points should be raised.
But that's politics hey. The more power and money you have. The more contr you have. Just depends on how charming you are as a government to convince your nation you doing the right thing.
So again. We need to stop labelling and categorization entire nations on a few idiots actions. We need to stop being so narrow minded and readily accept what mainstream media tells us. Question everything. If the logic doesn't add up, their is a flaw somewhere. Which is why I never returned the question. Because life is not black and white. If that was the case I could just as well say all American have orange tans, bad hair cuts and are very hypocritical.
My two cents!
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See @carlnash ... 😉 And here's my $0.02 in support of your $0.02 @mimismartypants ...
Not sure, at this point, if you wish for me to comment further or not. So, in the interest of time, I'll wait for you to let me know. It's your post ...
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Please do. I'm sure you have lots to say.. 😀
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Okay @mimismartypants. Of course, we all have a lot to say. While I don’t personally need to say it, I do enjoy exchanges with those who don’t mind a “spirited” discussion. As long as it can be done with civility and respect. At least for the most part … 😉 And I prefer to only invest my time in ones in which there is at least a little uhhh … “light” being generated. Rather than all just “heat” … 😉
So … On the original question, one might not be unreasonable to conclude you have taken perhaps a little offense at it. Saying both ”.. the attitude of judging others regardless of their religion or beliefs is not taught in Islam.” Then referencing hypocrisy in your comment above … From my perspective, I was uhhh … “precise” with the words contained in my original question. Nonetheless, from the differences in our culture and national origins, I now know though how it comes across …
Whether you choose to or not is up to you, but I will tell you there is no more important question about your religion than the one I have put to you. However difficult that may be to hear. So … I thank you again for your response in this post. To which I have replied positively (at least to me …) above …
In a brief response to your bulleted points:
Current examples: Here on our Steem blockchain, I have personally been part of exchanges with our Venezuelan friends who are hoping America will save them. We are currently “faced off” with Iran. Over what? I’d be interested in your answer. The “war” between the Shite and Sunni branches of your religion would appear to an “outside observer” to have led to a great loss of life. Both historically. And currently. The aggressive nature of the Shite theocracy in Iran also threatens Israel and, of course, we have the ever popular “death to America” …
The bottom line: We are called upon (they are probably not going to be coming to South Africa to ask for help …) over and over to “settle” something that could easily be viewed by us as someone else’s problem … ”Just take care of it yourself” could be our response … Or not … We ”don’t care” as it won’t hurt us … Right?
I wonder @mimismartypants whether you would agree with these Wikipedia stats on the religious demographics of South Africa. And, if so, does that influence your view of your faith? My point is that I wonder whether there is a distinct difference in how you would answer the questions in our exchange vs. someone from a country which is predominantly Muslim. Particularly countries in the Middle East?
Hellooo @roleerob!! Nooo not at all I have not taken any offense. I was just rolling with the devil's advocate vibes. My statements were not meant as an attach or a direct hit on anyone at all. Just generalist findings. Again, a gov's actions cannot be pinned people. And im the last person that should be discussing politics.
I also think there is alot of Islamophobia going around in western parts of the world. There are bhudist monks slaughtering Muslims in Burma, there's the Israeli Palistinian conflict, Sri Lankans Muslims are being attacked, there has been over 500 attacks on Muslims in America this year already. I'm sure a quick google will reveal much more. It's what the media chooses to publicise and not show. If you delve in deeper to movements like isis you'll see that some of them don't even know the Quraan or basic declaration of Islam. These are not isolated to Muslims but rather pinned on them. Who knows what is really happening hey.
Fun fact it's actually a cardinal sin to take your own life in Islam. Like you seen as someone who has week faith and your soul is pretty much doomed in the after life. Dying and fighting fir your religion makes you a martyr. Not taking your life willing in suicide. So again, mentally unstable individuals that obviously have some demons they facing.
Like i said. Islam is a religion of peace and love. So again, no religions teaching or Islamic text will demand that people should be killed for some or other reasons.
As Christians believe, we carry our own sin. We can repent and ask for forgiveness. But we all have free will and be held accountable for our actions.
Also apologies if I sounded abrupt or offended you. I been sick all week and still am so i tend to lose my tact. Also tone is rather subjective when you reading text 😉
Good afternoon (here) @mimismartypants. Not to worry. I am not offended. And relieved to hear you are not either ...
Glad to hear you view Islam as a religion of peace. Outside your faith, I have read statistics that 75 to 80% of Muslims are in agreement with you. That leaves 20 to 25% who are not ... Are these statistics valid? How do we determine today what is "truth?" And what is not?
Not sure of how you view life there in South Africa, but I think these questions are very hard to answer. Given the time in human history in which we live, you can "google" just about anything. Just because you can find it written down somewhere on the Internet, does that make it true? Reading the credentials and source citations of those who write helps, but it is not "bulletproof" ...
Sorry to hear you are not feeling well. Not fun to be sick. I hope you recover quickly to your full health. Take care!
Good morning (here) @carlnash. While I appreciate your passion for the topic and have no problem (been known to write a post in a reply myself ...😉) with the length (it is and will not be TL;DR to me ...), there is one matter I hope to resolve. Before I reply further ...
In my limited engagement with @mimismartypants, she has identified herself as a Muslim in South Africa. I am a Christian in America. As far as I know, we are getting along fine.
While I am familiar with your account name, I do not know your background although I have asked you for a little bit of it. For example, are you either Muslim or Christian in your worldview? I trust you won't mind either sharing it with us or explaining why you choose not to.
As for this ...
... if there is a problem, the @mimismartypants I know won't be shy in letting you know ... 😉
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Lol im enjoying the discussion indeed!! Even though we all have very different optionions. Its pretty solid. What fun is it discussing a topic with people who agree with everything you say?
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