RE: The Daily Owl, Ep. 10: No, Voting Is Not "Violence," But It Is Usually Pretty Damn Despicable
I think that the perpetrator of violence as well as the people giving the orders are both involved in violence.
I addressed in the video that sometimes this is the case. You should watch it.
That said, if someone tells you to kill someone, and you do it, it is ultimately your responsibility for committing the action. If we accept individual self-ownership, we cannot blame others for our choices. If violence is employed by the commander to coerce the order follower into the murderous action, then both parties become guilty.
In order for something to be “violent” an actual violation is required. This is clear. In order then for a violation to have occurred, property or body must be violated. This does not occur simply by virtue of the act of casting a ballot.
Definitions must remain clear. Each individual is solely responsible for his or her own voluntary actions when it comes to legal and reality-based culpability.
I did watch the video. I think your example is not covering what I am saying.
We need to define what is aggression. You use a definition where only the actual (final) violation of rights is seen as aggression. This definition is very clear, but has the big flaw that it gives zero responsibility to the masterminds of the operation, for example a mafiaboss.
Instead I use a causal definition, where actions are judged by their outcomes, following the chain of events that finally lead to a violation of rights. In that definition, the mafiaboss is responsible for all the violence that is committed in his name, even when he does not use violence himself to keep his mob under control.
Or consider someone hiring an assassin with money. Both definitions agree that the assassin is committing violence. But I would state that the person hiring the assassin is also committing a violent action because paying the assassin directly (and causally) leads to violence.
The big problem of my definition is that it is not easy to measure and not always clear.
This I would argue does not depend on the definition of violence. In both cases this statement remains true.
“Casual definitions” potentiate violent conflict when it comes to property, in many cases. Norms are important, irrespective of biased and personal “casual definitions.”
The person hiring an assassin to kill an innocent individual is certainly an unsavory and evil character. However, it is still the assassin’s choice.
If someone tells you to kill someone, and you listen, and do it, it is your fault, and your crime, regardless of the horrible advice or request. This is the crux of individual self-ownership, the foundation of voluntaryism. Do you disagree?
I agree that you are completely responsible for your actions.
That means that the assassin is responsible for killing the victim and the client is responsible for hiring the assassin.
The question is what gets labeled as violence, crime or immoral. And that depends on the definitions. I can see the point for your definition.
In the end it is just about the words, but when we say that violence justices a violent response in self-defence, then definitions become important.
I would argue that I have a right to defend against people paying others to kill me, even if that involves violence given that it is suitable to protect me and proportional. If I can save myself buy killing the person paying the assassin before the assassin gets me, then I have a right to do that.
Or consider a much more extreme case. Do I have a right to assassinate Hitler to protect myself from the continued violence of the nazi state? Hitler himself did not physically violate many other people, but he was responsible for a huge amount of violence. I would argue that you may act in self-defence in this case.
In the case of violence, for voluntaryists, it’s easy. Violence is a violation of property.
Interesting example regarding Hitler. If he presented an imminent threat to your body and property, then yes. I’d say it would be acting in self-defense to kill him. Again, though, I’ve already been over this. Voting is not the same as said imminent threat. If voting is violence, is could be considered “self-defense” for you to shoot up the entire polling center. Would that massacre be “self-defense”?
Of course not. Because you and I both know the action of voting in and of itself is not intrinsically violent. Hitler, if you were an enemy of the state, would present and direct and imminent threat to your life. The average voter would not.
Of course not because that response would be completely out of proportion. An individual voter is only responsible for a tiny assault on my freedom. Only the sum of all voters is adding up to something concrete.
I will try one last example. If I pull the trigger of a gun, that is in itself not a violent action. But I know that a complex set of chemical and physical processes will lead to the planned damage.
Paying an assassin in itself is not violent, but I know that it will have the same outcome through a set of complex interactions. My intentions are the same, I only try to keep my hands clean.
I dont think that there is a fundamental difference if i use a gun, a killing robot or an assassin. I wanted a violation of someone else's rights and I have acted in a way to make that happen.
I understand that causal definitions are a lot more messy and may lead to conflicts in their interpretation, but I think that the world is complex and ignoring causality oversimplifies it. In wars, we know the real criminals are not the soldiers. They are just victims of their ignorance. Many of them are likely good people that would have been alright in other circumstances. The true evil are the people that plan wars for their own profit and lust for power. A causal analysis will reveal them as the true criminals.
But in the end I think we are really just fighting over words. I think that in most real world situations we would conclude more or less the same actions as moral/immoral.
Okay, then what would be the appropriate self-defense from a voter?
I agree, for the most part I think.
In your opinion, what would be the appropriate self-defense from a voter, if you were inside the polling center?
I really want to hear an answer to this.
I am not so sure, I mentioned an idea in the first reply. Given that there are say 30% anarchists, then one could try to blockade all the voting stands to prevent the vote from happening.
If you are alone, I have no idea. I dont think there is a good answer.
Violating someone for punching a button at a polling station is wrong, man.