Is "Tribalism" Good, Bad or Indifferent? Is "Us vs. Them Our Strength or Our Downfall?
A slow day at work led to another #discussion in the back hallway. Are all our groups, tribes and affiliations a GOOD thing? Do they serve to unite us, or separate us? Does tribalism ultimately cause all our wars? What do YOU think?
I think tribalism is our shared enemy.
Well, I guess, since the pre-human Australopithecines three million years ago until these blockchain days. Unfortunately, "Tribalism" still looks like an "Us vs Them trend among new actors perpetually trying that their own offspring scale up in the dominance hierarchy of the tribe.
Hence, Good, Bad or Indifferent? or Our Strength vs Our Downfall?
Uhmm, I suppose we'll have to see the outcomes yet after three million years more. Tsk Tsk }:)
That's what caught my eye, more than anything else.
And therein lies the great challenge; because thinking "above" requires a great deal of awareness and consciousness and many of our systems (educational, religious, sociological, political) are set up to guide us away from bring awake and engaging in critical thinking.
And goodness knows, it's easy to fall into "tribal thinking." But I also believe we have to do more than just sit around and say "well, that's just the way it is." Which I get the sense is what most ideologies would rather have be "the truth."
In your post, you mentioned (for example) your reticence with labels; with the "anarcho-capitalist" label. I always end up pondering labels for a while-- to me, they do have their usefulness, but only in the same way it's useful to know you wear size 10 shoes when you go shoe shopping. It's a piece of "useful information," but it doesn't determine what kind of shoes you buy. But it does save you some time when it comes to trying things on.
Tribalism seems to be running rampant at the moment; recent times seem to embrace the "us vs. them" mindset in ways we have not seen in a long time. I can't help but think it's making the path forward more challenging...
Alternative, you could see it as an acceptance of who we are (tribal).
Rather than intellectualize yourself out of a reality , would it not be better to move forward from accepting what is, and work from that perspective...
(Using the term what is, in this context - is hundreds of thousands of years of tribal structure, in all societies - and without any 'social engineers' involved.
Doesn't this tell us that is'what is?)
We are tribal - and I'm pretty sure we always will be.
See how comfortable you are going into a strange rough ghetto at 6 o'clock at night. Tribalism is alive and well - and healthy!
Working within this paradigm to make things better - is the way to go, (imo)
Social engineering is a forced changing of our nature. We are human beings before human thinkings - no matter how much our intellectual hubris fights this fact.
Social engineering -communism with patience, and a nice face..
I think we may be saying something similar, only approaching from different angles.
For me, tribalism itself isn't so much the problem as the seemingly strengthening trend to want to kill/silence/defeat/convert anyone who doesn't conform to the way "we" think they should think/smell/act/believe/ behave. Maybe the problem is less tribalism than intolerance.
When I was pretty broke, I lived in a ghetto part of east Austin... and yes, that was a "tribal" experience. And yet, I was OK as a "white boy living where the black tar flows," at least to a degree, because I was part of the 'hood.
You can't "force" people to ANYthing, successfully... but we can encourage the betterment of self for the broader benefit of ALL.
In all my travels, I've found intolerance in people is pretty rare.(very rare tbh)
Intolerance propagated by people with an agenda, is not.
Unfortunately some disgruntled people (low iq mob mentality) can be manipulated to become intolerant fascists!
As you say, living in a ghetto ( I have found), brings color and fun and lots of piss taking at my expense lol
I have only felt intolerance once in a 'ghetto'- and that was more teenagers, testosterone, mates around to impress, and a pretty girl I was with, tbh.
A person isn't stupid. People are.
Indeed, a person isn't stupid.
I tend to often be a "macro observer" of the human condition-- and so, I often end up looking at "people" and what motivates them.
These days, it seems we're seeing more intolerance (especially in the west) as a result of an economic divide that is fueling the "scarcity paradigm" in an ever growing sector of the population. Humans-- and all animal populations -- tend to become more aggressive when there is scarcity. Even if it's perceived scarcity. The negative aspects of tribalism bloom on perceptions (however incorrect) that "they HAVE, and we DON'T" which can give rise to a sort of violent intolerance.
I'm by no means about to "go postal" on the world, but I am very cognizant of the fact that I — and a fair number of my peers — are working 20% more for 20% less than we were, 25 years ago, in terms of effective buying power. I can also project that forward and understand that "retirement" is not something that will ever exist in my world. Not everyone views such an equation philosophically, though.
Things like the "Occupy" movement-- however misguided they may be-- didn't arise out of "thin air;" they arose out of an underlying socio-economic issue... again, we have another "us vs. them" tribal situation.
Take a look at my last few days/week posts - all are rothchilds, soros, banking related.
...they arose out of the money supplied by the left, to create agitation...
.....they arose because western banks funded them to the tune of just under a billion dollars (today's money)
....one of many. Very industrious this last week! lol.
https://steemit.com/blog/@lucylin/black-lives-matter-more-like-communist-useful-idiot-s
very important topic...
humanity has been plagued with the scorch of tribalism and discord.this is the common final pathway for all union of humanity.it starts with a common interest and later deterioriate to the ill side which is always segregation of none members. the world would be a better place if we left all form of unions other than humanity. it is an artificial problem backed by nature.we cannot run from the fact that we speak differently from others and that we have different skin colours.
I would definitely agree that we will get further through cooperation than through dividing ourselves into little groups.
Well right now @denmarkguy we are seeing tribalism in the US like it's never been in a long time. Maybe since the Civil War.
A lot of it is brought about by a President who has NO clue what it is to be a real Leader who can actually bring people together.
He is just Dividing our Nation right now.
He has actually been the impetus to spur this tribalism we are seeing right now. In one corner we have a group of people who would truly prefer the Jim Crow days in US as this was an era where their Race and Religion dominated all of Society. They want none of those "brown people" or none of those people with those funny looking towels on their head. In their opinion they make our Society much more worse.
They prefer blonde hair blue eyes
And in other corner well we have everybody else lol
P.S. I do realize I'm making a sweeping judgment call. Of course I know not all those people are Jim Crow supporters but the fact is many are.
I do agree that "separation" seems to be the "flavor of the year," at the moment. Our current President is not a politician, he's a businessman who's used to calling the shots and getting things his way. That might make him a good manager, but it makes him a dubious-- possibly even dangerous-- statesman. In a sense, he represents the "last gasp" of an older generation who still cling to "1950's values" and see that era as the American time of greatness.
Personally, that's not my vision of the world and the primary challenge becomes that the remainder of the world has gone in a different direction... and going backwards isn't going to recreate the past.
Are all our groups, tribes and affiliations a GOOD thing?
That's like asking is blood sugar a good thing
is hemoglobin a good thing?
The monkeysphere is the way our minds are wired. Two ways to get around it...
One...a post scarcity economy
Two...genetic engineering..
OK, so the monkeysphere is the way our brain is wired.
The next question — at least for me — becomes whether we simply "accept" that as the final answer and say "... so therefore we can't help ourselves," OR do we stay vigilant and conscious our brain wiring and say "these are the ways in which this is not serving us," and take steps to rise above the limitations.
For sure, a post-scarcity economy would do away with a lot of bickering.
Modern neuroscience also suggests that we can, after a fashion, rewrite our neural nets to bypass certain types of thinking/trauma; it requires practice and dedication.
Humans do change, in response to their environment, and it doesn't have to take 100's of years. Take, for example, the decline in testosterone of men in western nations over the part 40 years as a result of technology taking over traditionally "physical" requirements. In a sense, that's almost a form of environmental genetic engineering.
can you seen in ultra violet?
can you hear in infra sound?
same thing..
Is wishing rilly, rilly hard gonna change anything?
oh yeah...i forgot to mention the bell curve.
WishingI could see in ultraviolet (alone) doesn't make anything so.
But wishing fuels the imagination.
The imagination fuels invention.
Invention creates change... I come up with a pair of glasses that (safely) allows me to see in ultraviolet.
It's that, or sitting indifferently around on our butts saying "nothing can be helped, pass me another beer."
Both approaches exist.
like I said...the only way to change the hardwiring is external influence...Hypnois (probably won't work) drugs (lots of experimenting going on...school shooting comes to mind) , genetic engineering ( someone else go first...I'll watch)...Direct Neural Interface (what I'm betting on)...or perhaps something else..
But wishing REALLY hard...won't hack the program.
You can completely regenerate all the cells in your body, it happens naturally every 7 years you are completely replenished.
Who is to say that if you spent every day of those 7 years thinking positive thoughts and consciously asking for new neural connections, new cells... Add to that a cellular detox plan and focus on eating life regenerative foods, yoga, mindfulness, awareness.
We each have choices daily we make which shape our future. It's never too late to choose to love ourselves.
an analogy.
Stipulate: by using a cellular detox plan and focus on eating life regenerative foods, yoga, mindfulness, awareness
I don't happen to believe that...but lets say that it's true.
Doesn't matter, by doing that you alter the societal programming...that's all.
It does nothing to the Operating System.
Monkeysphere is hardwired into the Human Operating System. It's MUCH deeper than the societal programming.
What you believe will be true.
I believe in the infinite possibility drive and I chose to activate 🌟
Blessings to you in your unique journey
Based on what I see around me and how some tribes in Europe and UK (also US) feel about immigrants, I think tribalism is not doing us much good. Diversity of thought is really important for our growth and tribalism is a big enemy of diversity. That's just my two cents on the topic, I may be completely wrong but I would be happy to learn a different perspective☺️
Sometimes the effects of "tribalism" (especially religious and political) end up becoming hypocrisy. Immigrants seek shelter in other countries-- in search of "a better life." That's fair enough. But then after they have been in their new homeland for a while, they start protesting and insisting on "changes" to make things more like the home they were used to... wanting an underlying structure that WAS THE CAUSE of the situation that made them want to leave, in the first place.
Maybe THEY don't see it that way... but it's the way it inevitably works.
If that were the case: "immigrants start protesting and insisting on changes to make things more like their homeland" can it justify "our" tribalistic response in chasing "them" back to where they came from?
I am not sure what the answer is but you brought up a really good question: How do we handle a situation where we feel that some people (who are now part of our community) want something that we do not think is going to serve us?
Personally, I've not seen "immigrants protesting" as they usually don't have the legal right to protest in the host country. Is this something you're seeing happening around the world?
No. I don't think "chasing them back in the water" is the answer. On the other hand, I don't think it's unreasonable to say "When in our house, we play by our rules; when in your house, we play by your rules."
I'll give you an example that recently came up in my native Denmark, which has taken in a number of refugees and many immigrants in recent years. There was a movement Muslim immigrants took to the Danish government to have pork removed from the menus of Danish schools because it "offended their religion."
Just a minute... you came to Denmark to (among other things) get away from a religious totalitarianism form of government... but now you're asking for a form of religious totalitarianism to be implemented?
Ok I understand what you meant about making the new home country the same as their homeland. Thanks for sharing the pork example in school menu. I am not aware of the details of the case but here are my initial thoughts.
The schools should offer non-pork options for those who don't want to eat pork. It is not just Islam that forbids pork but also Judaism and I am sure there are Jewish kids in schools who are not immigrants. I am a vegetarian and if I go to another country I still would like to be able to retain my dietary preference. However, just as I would like to retain my own dietary preference I need to respect your choice too! So, if there was a non-pork option available and a group still tried to enforce its own preference (no pork in schools) on others, then that's just unacceptable.
Tolerance has to be both ways. I don't think if I come to Denmark I should have to eat pork ("When in our house, we play by our rules; when in your house, we play by your rules") and when you come to Malta (where I live) you should have to be vegetarian.
I hope that pork wasn't removed from the menu (it's a strange thing for a vegetarian to say :) ) simply because one group didn't want to eat it but I do hope that schools are catering for those who didn't want to eat pork as well. So it is more about adding instead of subtracting and restricting anyone's personal choice.
Ah, I understand what you're saying @lucygarrod, so I didn't complete the picture entirely.
In our example of the schools, there WERE multiple other options on the menus. The point was that pork should be removed because "it was offensive" to even HAVE it in a place where people eat. In other words, here the immigrant movement (representing 7% of the students) wanted NOBODY to have pork (meaning 100% of the students).
As much as anything, it's about respect and tolerance of those who are not like us. Unfortunately, there seems to be an "energy" in the world these days that we can't each have "our own" way, we can only have MY way, to the exclusion of YOU way. And I think that's just WRONG.
I am with you completely :)
I absolutely dislike those who try to impose their own ideas of what is right on others. One group can never make such a request without assuming that "they" are somehow superior to the other group and know what is good for others. If muslims in Denmark would like everyone to stop eating pork because it offends the muslim community, I think vegetarians of Denmark should ask them to stop eating meat all together because it offends vegetarians to see people eating meat ;)
I do agree with you that there is an energy around the world where "our way" is better than others and this is a truly worrying situation. Our world seems to be going backwards and we are fast losing all the liberal ideas that we fought so hard to spread. I think it is very important to have an open discussion about these topics (like they used to have in ancient Greece) and find rational answers to these challenging situations.
Thank you so much for keeping an open mind whilst sharing a different perspective with me :)
I respect people’s rights to meet etc but I don’t think it’s always a good thing. For example, I was raised in an apocalyptic cult in which the world was supposed to end years ago. There was very much a them against us mentality. This has caused major harm to my family, ultimately leading to my dad committing suicide. I know this is an extreme example but it’s one I’ve lived through.
Yeah, I know you've seen an extreme version of this, up close and personal; had to be very difficult to experience.
I personally don't mind boxes as "descriptions" of someone's predominant belief systems, but once you get beyond that, there's always the danger that the box will be more like a "fence," designed to delineate. And I don't think that serves us well.
Got that exactly backwards, tribalism is the base state of mankind - multiculturalism is an enlightened step forward in a world of tribalism.
I have confidence that humans are still evolving and will someday find a better way to resolve the inevitable conflicts which arise among tribes -- no matter the definition one uses for "tribe". I also have confidence that someday the USA -- arms maker and supplier to the world -- will reject military-industrialism in favor of other "toys"
Unfortunately, it feels a bit like the USA has recently been cycling backwards towards increased nationalism and more extreme "us vs. them" thinking.
Amen to that!
I'm a bit torn between deciding if it is a good or bad thing, because just like
@obaidb2 said, it can be a good thing or a bad thing since the tribe can be for good or a tribe can be for bad but that is what causes war and conflict between the tribes.
tribalism is good only to members....in a wide concept it destroys humanity and oneness.it makes people constantly aware of the fact that they are different from others
Which brings us to one of the issues that often runs as a thread through modern-day politics, religion and sociology: the fundamental idea that it's not "enough" to have the freedom to your beliefs, but you don't feel "right" about life till everyone else feels the same as you do; there's a perceived "threat" inherent in differences.
Tribalism is neither good nor bad ...
It depends on the people you are with ..if the people in tribe are good , it is altogether good
It is bad if it is full of republicans and that will ultimately lead to the formation of sects ..
It's complex, to be sure. We have the sort of tribalism that makes us fans of our city's or university's football team; but we still might have a party with fans of the opposing team. One the other hand, some tribal delineations are about "creating separation," and in some cases... the tribes WANT to create tribes to keep themselves apart from others, which also allows for calling others "evil" or "bad" or something else that creates a foundation of fear rather than cooperation.
Tribalism is.
In some Native American nations, there were Sacred Clowns who shook up ceremonies by acting like idiots. They facilitated the people's ability to amplify the truly sacred, and expel the tired posery. Similarly, Thomas Jefferson said we should have a revolution every 20 years, the expiration date of most cults and communes
Agreed, tribalism "is." But what do we choose to DO with it? Will it dominate and drive our lives, or will it merely be a form of free-time entertainment, like waving a certain flag at ball games?
Yeah, the heyoka were the contrarians in the tribe; in a sense the Native American version of the court jester of old; incidentally the only person who could speak the truth about the ruler and the customs of the time.
I guess I am thinking of tribalism vs. individualism as poles of duality and we are compelled by the human condition to pendulate between them. Sacred clowns facillitate that pendulation, keeping us in balance.
The Transhumanism project is hard at work destroying family affiliation and genetic fate. Perhaps they will succeed at turning proles into mere flag wavers without a deep and abiding sense of tribal (extended family or community) belonging.
To me that is supremely dystopian and worse than oldtime barabarians.
Very thought provoking discussion, thank you!
I personally have a number of "issues" with transhumanism, starting with the inevitable homogeneity of the ultimate species... the "most efficient" will become predominant, and yet without variation the species will atrophy from the result of no longer having divergent ideas.