Leading By Example: A New Approach To Curation Guilds

in #curation8 years ago (edited)


Having read @ats-david's post about curation guilds last night, I feel that he raised a number of important issues. However, I'm not entirely sure whether the post was in fact an elaborate trolling effort, because 90% of the questions raised were also applicable to himself.

Troll or not, some important issues have been raised-- ones that I too myself have been pondering in the recent weeks. We must consider what message we are promoting to outsiders looking in, wondering whether they would want to be a part of the community we are building here.

I believe there is a place for curation guilds. At least during this initial phase of Steemit's development. Without @curie and the support it was able to offer me, I wonder if I would still be here. Nonetheless, I feel it evident that there are negative implications to some of these guilds that are in desperate need of addressing.

The trending page is often full of guild member's posts. It was only a few weeks that I learned of who the guild members were, and since I have not once looked at the trending page and not seen at least one or two of them in the top five.

The content is not necessarily unworthy of rewards-- but the question is; is it worthy of the most rewards?

We have to keep in mind that to someone checking out Steemit for the first time, the trending page is going to be a significant message which speaks to the type of content, and the quality of content that earns the most rewards here. For this reason, we should be making absolutely sure that the top five trending posts are of exceptional quality.

Meaning no offence here, but I don't think, based on my own personal observations, that that's what we are seeing here. It's certainly not the best content that Steemit has to offer. We could and should do better.

Now, I have read over a number of debates about the issue with curation guilds, and it seems that the justification most often cited for this is that guild members should be compensated for their time. "People should be rewarded for working 10 hour days,"- or something to that effect, is a passage I have seen a number of times.

Is this true though?

I can definitely understand the desire to be paid for time spent. But, I do not believe that this type of mentality is suited for the task at hand.

There are millions of people in the world who work ten hours without monetary compensation. It is called volunteer work. If one cares enough about a cause, they commit their time towards it.

Does this mean that they are not compensated? No. They receive payment for their work through the knowledge that they have done good, the feeling of being able to help, and the spectacle of seeing what they care about improve.

With this in mind, I can't sit around and watch this continue whilst remaining silent on the issue. I have grown to care deeply about Steemit and about its success. A mantra that has been replaying through my mind in the recent days is;

If you want to see people doing better, then set a better example.

Curation guilds are hurting Steemit as much as they are helping it at the moment. I think the only way for us to move passed this is to create a guild that only helps, and does not hurt the community or the platform in any way.

I have given quite some thought to how this could be achieved, and I believe I have come up with the answer.

What we need is a curation guild who's members seek only the compensation of being able to see users adequately rewarded, and having Steemit succeed.

Guild members would never vote their own posts with the voting power bestowed upon them.

Rather than people working ten hours a day, there would be a number of people committing one or two hours a day towards searching out exceptional content, and suggesting it to the guild.

Members of the community would be encouraged to put forth suggestions of very high quality content-- not because they would like a finder's fee, but because they think the post in question merits a reward.

All posts upvoted by the guild would be at 100% voting power.

What good is it upvoting a post a hundred times to give it $0.50? This is useless. Let's consider the user retention issue.

Do you think that rewarding 100 users per day with 100 votes and $1 dollar payout it going to make them stay? Whilst upvoting yourself to the tending page?

Or will they look at those who have similar votes but 10 or 20 times higher payout and feel disheartened?

It is my opinion that guilds would be of better service by aiming to assist others at getting on the trending page.

Give a new member who has produced something of great value a boost onto the trending page, as well as rewards that are deserving of their efforts, and they will stick around as long as it takes to get that feeling again.

Beyond that, boosting them to the trending page will give them the visibility necessary to amass some followers and quicken their progression. Thus, enriching their experience.

Giving them 100 or 200 upvotes and a small payout will do nothing to increase their visibility, nor their motivation.

How this could be achieved

Having discussed this with @stellabelle, we have decided to officially give this go. We have also reached out to a few a dolphins and one whale who have shown great interest in the idea and offered support should it live up to their expectations. They also understand that they will not be compensated for their efforts, and are happy about this.

Obviously we are reaching out to even more in the hope of support, but we will be needing a lot of it if this is going to be successful. I write this post with the hope that it will serve as an invitation to any in the community who want to be a part of setting a better example.

To be a part of a guild that is founded not upon self-serving desires to gain monetary rewards or a sense of empowerment, but on the principal that the best, and only the best content should be reaching the trending page.

There will also be a keen eye in search of posts which attract a lot of user engagement. If your post has 100 comments or more, you should really be getting rewarded for that. I have heard it said so many times that Steemit is an attention economy, so to draw so much comments equates to garnering a lot of attention, and consequently such a feat should be rewarded.

To summarise how this guild would be different to other ones;

  • No guild members would receive votes from those who have gifted their power-- unless that person or persons does so manually.

  • There will be no monetary rewards of any kind of guild members. There will be no account for the guild, so it will extract no money from the reward pool. This will be strictly voluntary work from anyone who wants to help for the benefit of Steemit.

  • The guild's voting power will never be used to downvote a post, nor a comment. Not in individual disputes. Not because a post has too high of a reward. Not even for spam, plagiarism or abuse. There is already mechanisms in place for this type of thing, such as @cheetah.

  • All guild votes will be at 100%, with the intent of making at least one exceptional post hit the top five every day.

  • Whilst the guild will aim to reward the newest of users to make their posts get more visibility so that they can attain more followers, there will be no restrictions on what author's posts are eligible. Only guild members will be excluded. We want to see the best content promoted and rewarded, so if that content happens to be produced by a level 68, we will not exclude them from our consideration.

  • Controversial posts will not be excluded from consideration. Be it political, religious, conspiracy-based or otherwise, we feel that to disallow any type of content is to the send the message that some people are not welcome here on Steemit. We will be looking for quality, regardless of content.

These are the foundations upon which we intend to build this guild, but this is still in the earliest stages of development, so we are open to ideas on how it can be improved.

It will be a little while before this gets up and running, but if you would like to assist in any way, then please make your desire to do so known in the comments. There will be a channel on steemitchat created soon for discussion.

Ways in which you can help

  • Volunteer some of your time(your choice on how much) to finding the very best of content available for suggestion.

  • Sharing your ideas on how to improve the efficacy of the guild.

  • Offer your voting power for when the time comes that the guild launches.

  • Share your technical abilities for better functionality.

Reminder: You will not be rewarded for this in anyway other than seeing Steemit improve, and perhaps your account value increasing should the improvements lead to more people making use of the platform.


When first thinking of this, I thought it would be better to just share the idea and keep my name out of it. There have been a few instances in the past where I have spoken up about my concerns and as a result of this, I thought it would limit our chances of gaining some support from influential members of the community.

I have since been persuaded that the fact that I was willing to speak out at the risk of having my account's reputation ruined, is the reason why I should attach my name to this project. The community and the prosperity of Steemit has always and will always come first with me. I feel transparency is another issue that prevents me from remaining a silent partner on this project, so I have decided to be open about my involvement.


There has been enough debate, enough complaining, and enough arguing among ourselves. If we want to see change, then we need only be the change we want to see. If you would like to offer your support. Let it be known in the comments.

Please resteem this post to raise awareness and hopefully get more people, and more minds involved.

Sort:  

Good points. It is easy to complain about others but that doesn't provide a solution. We should all be working on making things better for each other. There are so many little ways we can all contribute to growing the platform! Simply sharing good posts on other social media would make a big difference.

https://twitter.com/Soul_Eater_43/status/830873707333689344

My sentiments exactly. There has been enough words. It's time for action.

Thanks for the share. You just reminded me that I have a twitter now. Lol.

@son-of-satire I maybe almost a day late to comment but I wonder .. how about we start putting "guidelines / standards?c/ criteria ?" I don't know which word to use to not offend anybody here to encourage good quality posting. I guess, unless we do so we will still be seeing posts that some whales here call "poor quality posting" getting supported.

There are many groups / guilds that take care of newbies now but these days, I have noticed that there are those who have stopped for a while for whatever reasons they have - work, they got disappointed, got busy etc... but are trying to come back. I think it is also important to have them supported, too. IMHO it is important that we support the newbies, the ones who are consistently doing their best to put out good quality posts and those who are in between - like the ones who are trying to come back. If we want to grow we can't just grow by just welcoming newbies and ignoring the oldies can we? IMHO it is important to find balance on everything. I'm a minnow and my voice may not matter much but IMHO it is perhaps but time to put up standards on "quality posts." It is absolutely awesome to exercise freedom and an extreme welcoming feel to reward newbie's posts but it would also be a great push and incentive if oldies would not be ignored, more so - those who are doing their best putting out posts that reflect efforts - not just complacency - it's just my humble opinion and suggestion. What kind of post do we really want to thrive here? Unless it is defined - IMHO no matter what guild / group support is put up there would always be a complain when one "poor quality post" gets supported.

Please don't get me wrong but I also think that - there's a line between good and poor quality post - whether value is subjective or not - it would still be obvious which post offers value and which one does not - so where do we draw the line? Would the guild that you will be starting be having defined criteria of posts you guys will be supporting?

It actually states within the post that this guild will be about rewarding the best content, regardless of reputation. We want to see the best that Steemit has to offer, receiving the best rewards-- whether it be coming from a level 25 who joined on that very day, or a level 75 who has been here since its inception.

As for quality, yes it's subjective. But, as you said, it is noticeable when something is particularly well written, well presented and clearly a lot of time has gone into it. It's even more noticeable when something is lazy, badly formatted, and clearly rushed. So, whilst there will always be an element of subjectivity, I feel that it won't be difficult to ensure that everything we vote on(which will likely be only 10 or so a day), will be of indisputably excellent quality.

We have also decided that there will be an account made for the guild, which will have a daily post containing what we have determined to be the top ten posts of the day. This will give the posts even more visibility and encourage user engagement on them. We may also include a few runners up that will not receive the rewards but will receive the extra visibility from the post. And- all posts from the guild account will be made with the "decline payout" option selected.

@son-of-satire yes, I saw that part but I still wanted to clarify and sorry if it is a bit insistent but I really wanted to be sure.

Thank you and will be looking forward to you guys in action.

EDIT : replying on your nested comment

I still wonder if you guys would give a defined criteria for voting - if I may put it that way but like you said - it's just starting so I'd just wait and hope for the best.

I can't speak with certainty on, but including content from all users for possible rewards is something that is not going to change.

Yes, I understand this part - it's out of our control.

It's a not problem at all. If you have anymore questions just let me know. But keep in mind that this is still a rough idea that will be getting developed further over the next few days, so there is some things I can't speak with certainty on, but including content from all users for possible rewards is something that is not going to change.

Very cool! Resteemed :)

One question - is there a good way for members of the community to send the guild posts to review, similar to how it is done for Curie?

I have been discussing this with one of the interested dolphins and it's something we will have to decide on when we know everyone that is involved. We could perhaps vote on what we think is best.

But, we recognise the problems that we are faced with.

Whilst there will be less of a chance of spamming with us offering no finder's fees, there might still be a lot of people suggesting their own posts or that of their alternate accounts.

If we get enough volunteers who are willing to spare as little as an hour a week towards looking for exceptional work, we may not need others to make suggestions. If not though, we may limit the suggestions to one per day per user. But, yes, it would most likely be through a channel on steemitchat or discord should we go down that route.

I hope this answers your question sufficiently.

Yes, thanks for your response :) The one post per day limit sounds like a good idea. If your team is able to curate and find enough posts without outside input though, then I agree it might not be needed.

The hope is that it can be avoided, and I'm willing to personally allocate two hours a day to seeking out the best that Steemit has to offer.

But, if we don't have enough people willing to provide a little of their time, then we will have to make use of suggestions. I'm an optimist though, and I have seen the passion with which a lot of the members of the community speak about the platform. I think we will get the support we need.

Your thinking is much in line with my own. So I will fully support you! You have those 2 hours from me.

PS
Already spent them on here :D , so more again tomorrow :D

Tomorrow, once enough people have been had the opportunity to view this post and offer their support, I shall invite all who did into a channel on discord.

In the mean time, can you consider a particular category of content that you find to be a favourite? Each person will have a particular genre in which they seek out the very best content.

This way, those who are committing time will not feel like it is a chore, if they enjoy the subject matter that they are reviewing.

Thanks a lot for your help, and I will speak to you tomorrow on discord!

Here's the link for the discussion. Will start in two hours.

https://discord.gg/hx5Pn

That Guy @nonameslefttouse said it best...

Good luck with this. The more the merrier.

Guild should try to measure which content posted on steemit is well appreciated outside the steemit. Those articles should be taken on consideration, whether they are worth to support.

This is an excellent idea. It has the added benefit that the traffic arriving from elsewhere will take note of the higher payout awarded to the post and consider coming to the platform themselves.

We will definitely include this as a goal of the guild.

Thanks a lot for sharing the idea, and good night.

This exactly!

Very good observation. I decided that I don't want to participate​ in any guild what so ever. If they​ include my posts, I'm Ok with that. I'm better off alone.

This was my thoughts, because on close observation I didn;t agree with the way they were operating.

I wanted to give my power, little though it may be, to someone though. Because I am spending a lot of time creating content and don't always have the time to find the best posts.

I realised the only way I can be a part of a guild that I agree with 100% is if I create a guild I agree with 100%. Even if that means allocating a couple of hours a day towards searching for the best content, I'm willing to do that when I think about the effect it will have on individual authors and the community as a whole.

It's okay if you don't have time to find the best posts, that's y there's supposed to be other people on this platform reading other posts, not just you and bots. You don't have to vote on every good post. I see this belief that "I don't have time to sit and read through all the posts." Then one does not value enough what that person has to say on that post to take the time to read it. Going through content is not meant to be "skimmed" through, It's meant to be viewed and read.

I could just be in a guild and vote this post and "skim" through your post, but I value in what you have on your post to do that. Reading what you wrote and the comments is worth taking the time to read, even if I don't get to other great posts. There are other great curators that can catch the others. That does not mean we can catch them all but we don't need to believe that we have to vote on all great posts ourselves.

I just upvote good content that I like, I don't have to be in a guild to do that. I only join a few days ago, didn't take long for a guild to upvote my post, it was my 2nd one. I don't mind, to me guilds will be a double edge blade in this platform, usually they bring a community together, but it's doing so in both a positive and negative way it seems to most.

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I love the idea of finding and promoting top jewels to the front-page.
If there are 100 suggestions, we should narrow it down to top 10 or top 5 for max efficiency. How would the guild reach consensus on what the top X that deserve the upvote are?

Yes for sure. The plan is to reward a few number of exceptional posts with as much as we can, rather than reward a ton of average posts with a mediocre payout. We will have to find the right balance, because we would like to use 100% voting power for every single upvote, but we do not plan on depleting the entirety of the voting power delegated to us. We want those who help us to also be able to have the power to reward posts they come across manually with a significant amount of their power. I was thinking 10-15 posts suggested per day, but the decision will be made between us all in the discussion tonight.

I like that you seem to be on the page as I so it would be good to have you on board to share your ideas and help us get this right.

Here's a link to the discussion we will be having in a couple of hours is you would like to participate and share more ideas. https://discord.gg/hx5Pn

Good stuff. I agree with pretty much everything except the end:

There has been enough debate, enough complaining, and enough arguing among ourselves. If we want to see change, then we need only be the change we want to see.

Absolutely, set another better example, but why is it when people bring up issues that need to be dealt with it's presented as a negative like complaining or arguing? Can you clear that up? What were you referring to? The people bringing up the issue, or something else? If something is to stop, then the reason why needs to be understood in order for it to stop. Apparently this still needs to be done, even if you start a better version. Thanks.

Absolutely, set another better example, but why is it when people bring up issues that need to be dealt with it's presented as a negative like complaining or arguing? Can you clear that up? What were you referring to? The people bringing up the issue, or something else?

I'm referring to myself for the most part here. I have ended up arguing with others who's actions I have found distasteful. But, it is time for me to stop arguing and expecting that to lead to them changing their ways. Better that, as stated in the conclusion of this post, I be the change that I have been hoping to see for quite some time now.

I won't be able to do it alone however. There are already a few people on board but, this is going to take a lot more than a few.

Thanks for the clarification. I've been trying to develop this for anyone to do with SteemKURE. Resteemed.

Thanks for the share, and for your interest in what we're trying to do here. I will give SteemKure a look before the night is through.

I'm not sure I possess the technical knowledge to understand what SteemKURE is.

Is it a tool for which voting trails can be set up, similar to Streemian? I had a look but, I'm not certain of its primary function.

This video shows how to work it before the recent update.

Here are updated screeenshots of what there is: https://steemit.com/steemkure/@krnel/steemkure-v0-2-update-member-functionality-to-network-content-curation

And the About page has info on what you can do, did you look at that?

The idea is a place where you can add posts to lists for your curation group/project/guild/community, for now only to select them, but it would have been to develop into review or approval, where you set your own rules for a list/group/whtever, and then review and curate that way, eventually notification of posts added at end of day email or something, following lists, and other stuff.

Eventually there could be trail voting on approved posts, differentiated from submitted posts, who knows. But I've been into posting more the developing steemkure.

Can you post me a link to where I can find you on discord?

An easy way this could work out, on top of my head:-

  • No delegation of voting power, just a channel / subscription of highly-moderated list of posts. Everybody, including whales will decide to vote from looking at this list.

  • Only one submission per person per day, along with commentary / reasoning why the post deserves top spot of the day. If nothing particularly noteworthy, don't submit.

  • I'd suggest all volunteers to make use of already paid-for curation guilds like Curie, Steem Guild, Steem Trails, and indie curators like @shadowspub. And other guilds / initiatives catering to other stuff, of course. Basically just follow and read from these as they've already spent daily energy preparing a filtered view according to their own missions. So this will be the filter on top of filters.

  • Invite limited number of submitters and moderators first to control spam. Up to supporters to decide if the list generated is awesome or not.

Extra comment:

While high pageviews and comments are something that could be noteworthy, I personally don't think it's the most important metric in the world. There's no correlation between great content and immediate engagement. Some of the best musicians, philosophers, scientists etc have their works ONLY recognised decades, even centuries after their death lol, simply because people were engaged with other stuff. Also by definition, highly engaged contents already have the attention of others, including whales. Unless the whole point is to generate more immediate engagement.

Btw, just to mess with you - this should've been denied payment to truly "lead by example" lol

You should mention this at the discussion later again, but my initial worries with it are that it would just end up like the whalevote channel on steemitchat. What happens if the guild volunteers spend a few hours each in a day finding the best content and then for whatever reason, no whale is able to make it to the channel to offer support on that day? A lot of time would have been somewhat wasted if we are not able to reward those posts adequately.

I'd suggest all volunteers to make use of already paid-for curation guilds like Curie, Steem Guild, Steem Trails, and indie curators like @shadowspub. And other guilds / initiatives catering to other stuff, of course. Basically just follow and read from these as they've already spent daily energy preparing a filtered view according to their own missions. So this will be the filter on top of filters.

Yes I think this is an excellent idea that could help us find the cream of the crop a lot quicker. Though, our searches will certainly not be limited to posts that have already been selected by guilds.

Invite limited number of submitters and moderators first to control spam. Up to supporters to decide if the list generated is awesome or not.

We are still not certain if their will be a way for non-guild members to submit entries. It depends on the support we are able to get and the number of volunteers willing to offer an hour or two a week. But, each guild member will have a specific genre, or perhaps two if they are knowledgeable, to wit they will be required to sift out the very best of content on which ever day the commit their time.

While high pageviews and comments are something that could be noteworthy, I personally don't think it's the most important metric in the world. There's no correlation between great content and immediate engagement. Some of the best musicians, philosophers, scientists etc have their works ONLY recognised decades, even centuries after their death lol, simply because people were engaged with other stuff. Also by definition, highly engaged contents already have the attention of others, including whales. Unless the whole point is to generate more immediate engagement.

I get what you're saying but this is an attention economy after all. If we are not rewarding posts that successfully get a lot of attention then what is the point really?

Btw, just to mess with you - this should've been denied payment to truly "lead by example" lol

You're not wrong. That was my intent before writing it but after revising it, it slipped my mind. I was going to come back and edit it to explain this but, I thought it would just look like bullshit so I didn't bother. I spoke to @stellabelle about it last night and said that whatever payout becomes available from this post will go towards a bounty to come up for a name for the guild.

I think I have thought of a winner already, but I won't know for sure until I discuss with you guys later and share it.

If so, then the generated payout can go towards a logo creating bounty. I have the skills to do it myself, but I feel we could get a much better one if we offer a bounty to the community.

https://discord.gg/hx5Pn

Discussion starts in two hours if you're around.

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