RE: Why bother with circle jerks?
I don't disagree on the premise of UBI. Based on many cases of historical precedence I can see what is likely to happen with it due to government and market activity. I also don't believe in the government giving anything for FREE so that leaves me wondering where is this UBI going to come from, who is going to pay for it? If no one is and they are just adding more to the money supply then that devalues the currency and history has shown inflation will compensate and soon UBI will not be enough and they'll have to keep raising it. If money is backed by something it doesn't inflate. When it is fiat and you keep dumping more into the system it does.
So I don't disagree that UBI sounds good. I just don't see how it can actually work. I foresee likely events based upon plenty of past examples.
So if they can explain where it comes from, how it won't cause inflation and thus and endless cycle of continually having to increase the UBI, and how the government will not impose new fees, taxes, etc that simply consume all of that UBI effectively making it as how it was not there. If those things can be explained away in some rational way other than the idea just sounding compassionate and good then I'd support it.
Right now it all seems to be based purely on people believing it is compassionate and good.
Well there are many models to gain the money needed, one of the most popular is the taxation model that I used for my calculation above. Other popular ones are more local (based on citizenship) and others are ressource based like alaska. I never claimed the state can give out money for free, I dont know why you are arguing against something that i never said nor implied.
The UBI is on all cases a % of a value(work, ressources, etc) and thus should be rather immune to inflation on its own.
It is also an addition (compared to the multiplicative nature of minimum wage). It is much harder to negate an addition than a multiplication through division.
I'm not arguing with you at all. I am stating my problems/concerns with UBI.
Sry, but you mentioned that a couple of times and I was honestly getting a little annoyed by it. No offense, I love you mate ;)
Because you said we disagreed on UBI. I was telling you what it would take to get me to agree that UBI could work.
I meant the free money part.... Or do you need free money to agree on UBI?! xD
No for me to agree UBI could work I need to know the answer to these three things in a rational way, not simply because it is compassionate or sounds good. The answer does not have to come from you. SO I am not telling you that this is your duty to convince me. Without these things I see it as yet another program that is essentially continually kicking the can down the road.
Those currently are my three sticking points with the concept of UBI.
I can see your concerns. Well I wanted to post about the topic anyways. Maybe I can get you with some emotional statement ;). I cant even say for sure that BUI will work, but it is a much simpler experiment than Anarcho-Capitalism ;)
I'm pretty sure it will be tried. Yet not all the problems in the world are due to lack of money. Anarcho-Capitalism is a LONG TERM goal. It deals with a lot more issues than those simply existing due to money. Yet I don't expect to see it in my life time... if it ever happens it'll be likely generations from now. Just taking stepping stones towards it.
If UBI has some magical way of not running afoul of my three points of concern that I mentioned, I haven't seen them yet. So if it does work it could be a good thing. Yet many things SOUND good until they are implemented. If they want to try it as an experiment... go for it.
Sadly governments don't seem to like to admit if an experiment fails... they just keep pushing it. That is also a concern. If it fails, will they take a step back?
We do not live in a world that is resource driven economy. Those billionaires advocating for a UBI are not advocating for completely changing everything about how the world works. They are not advocating pushing a reset button and THEN trying it.
Thus, UBI when they speak about it is about paying people currency in an equal amount to every human.
That is being proposed to be dumped into the world as it works now.
If you want to press a reset button and switch to resource based I don't think you'd hear those billionaires supporting you as they'd suddenly lose a lot of their power and wealth.
So that leads me to suspect that the UBI they are speaking about is simply cold hard cash given to everyone.
Many of them have a ton of investments. And I am pretty sure I dont want the same thing those billionaires want, just because they call their ideas "UBI". Same for me with many people who called their ideas communism ;).
Also if the people in power will never ever make a fair deal with the world, we are forced to be violent and will most likely lose. I believe as well that all states and big corps are corrupted and will fight to keep the status quo, but that should not stop us from developing alternatives to our current society.
I hate it when that happens... brb....