Dear Bidbots: Thoughts after the hardfork
Hey guys, I take no quarrel with offering votes for a price. I remember when you had to be in the club to exchange votes. Openness and transparency are better than backroom deals all day long. However, I think things have to change after HF21. This platform is undergoing a lot of effort to clean up abuse, award good authors, and stop the endless siphoning of value. You, the bid bot owners, already have a large impact on the platform, but I think it's going to get larger, and more eyes will be upon you after 21 takes effect Tuesday.
I want to help bidbots that are ethical, practical, and care about Steem to grow. That growth I hope will come from bidbots that don't support this effort...
Downvotes
You guys are getting free downvotes. Of course you have the option to sell these. That might be a profitable service, and I have no quarrel with that in principle.
Assuming you aren't selling downvotes as you don't want to get into the questionable outcomes of that then you're going to have a large pool of downvote power. I'm encouraging you to get some guidelines immediately about types of content you'll flag, when you'll flag, and under what circumstances. If you have questions about it I suggest you talk to other bidbot owners, or the folks from steemcleaners (guiltyparties and anyx) about various practices.
I'd also encourage you to tighten up your standards regarding what content you allow to be bid botted. Right now with only a few notable exceptions people using bidbot services are free to shitpost all day long and upvote it to kingdom come. We need to change this behavior. You're going to want to change it anyway because after 21 this entire community will have free down votes and pure shitposts getting your votes are going to get nuked along with your profits and delegators' tolerance.
Right now several of you choose to allow any content of any quality, but if you continue doing that post hf21 I think you'll die a death of a million paper cuts. I'll help lead the effort.
Seriously, witnesses are implementing EIP to support the price of steem and improve content creation on the platform. I'm not going to see it undermined by bidbot owners who don't give a fuck. Steem price isn't going anywhere with large amounts of stake supporting zero-value posts just so bid bot delegators can receive a profit.
Shit's gotta change. Change has to start with me, and I'm going to put myself in front of your profits all day long until behavior is in line with #newsteem expectations.
If you've already done these thank you. If you haven't then I'd strongly encourage you to create the following.
- Guidelines on supported content
- Flagging guidelines to support quality content
- Arbitration
Time for a change and clean slate
The era of supporting literally anything and everything stops on Tuesday.
If it doesn't stop I plan to run an aggressive campaign against your business, against your delegators, and will try to get Steem delegated to your project moved to a more responsible one.
This isn't an idle request...
I'm not anti-bidbot. I'm coowner of steembottracker so that everyone can transparently and openly get the services you provide. Your service can be very valuable. So can mine. Imagine having a bidbot when no one knows when your vote windows happen... I think it'll be harder to engage in your business. Don't you?
I'm less inclined to set standards for you on what is a zero value shitpost. I want you to come up with guidelines that show what your business is doing to protect and grow the value of Steem for the stake holders.
Change is hard. I hope you'll manage.
Yours truly,
Aggroed
Ill use the bid bot to save me some hassle and streamline my rewards/votes but i wont sell my downvote. This to me is complete abuse, its a feature i will use now and then if there is something i particularly dont like. I wont use it to bully others or try to be the bigger man, this kind of thing i see on here and personally find it completely toxic. In fact i find myself keeping my opinions to myself sometimes because i know i can be a little over the top for some people.
I hope you read this.
I would like to see a service for daily flagging targets (abuse, spam) for those people who don#t have hours to spent on STEEM each day.
They can just look at the daily post of this new account and find worthy targets in seconds.
Maybe you know someone who could run such an account?
@steemflagrewards / https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@reazuliqbal/introducing-flagtrail-steemauto-for-flagging-abuse
Here here, I have never used a flag on anyone but I think it will become my responsibility to use my downvotes on content which is bidbotted and of questionable quality. I will do this and probably have to face the consequences of retaliation but if enough of the community come together to combat abuse we can win. I like the term you use
Roll on HF21. It time to make Steem something we can all be proud of.
I am in similar shoes as you.
I accidentally downvoted posts or comments once or twice. I remember removing at least one downvote, so I also very rarely (almost never) downvoted anything on the Steem blockchain so far, but after HardFork 21 I will try to use my downvotes in a similar way as you.
Downvoting scam and spam posts/comments is also a good idea, not just/only bidbotted posts with questionable quality.
I will use my downvotes responsibly, and I will downvote only scam/spam posts/comments, and bidbotted posts with bad quality. Maybe I will join the FlagTrail.
I would like to encourage everyone to do the same, and make the Steem blockchain a better place.
I’m sure a lot will get backlash at first for downvoting, but if they’re abusing, the community will have your back. They can’t flag us all, right? ;) I mean, they could... but how far will they really get?
I definitely think that now that they don’t cost you positive voting power, downvotes should definitely be used to moderate content more. It’s like getting a few free passes to say “I strongly disagree.” :)
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Got your back on this. I’ll do whatever I can to out a end to bid bot abuse going unchecked. Those days are over.
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Glad to see larger stakeholders that care. In reading older posts over the past month, I’ve seen times where that seemingly wasn’t the reality of the situation for a lot of them. I might have joined at the perfect time, new hardfork and all, Steem Engine coming about... The price being lower than it has in years.. yea, I came at the perfect time. :)
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Would you think that this is the right time to buy some Steem?
Because many people think (and even do) the opposite.
I am thinking about buying some Steem nowadays at these relatively low prices (around $0.18 USD).
The price was even lower (around $0.16 USD) in the previous days.
I think it's a wonderful time to buy steem. :)
It has more application than many other cryptos and a vast majority of those have bounced back multiple times, some even to new highs than previously. I see the all time low on coinmarketcap is like $0.06-0.08 for steem, so honestly even if it were to drop that low, I think it's a good buy now.
The idea behind all investing is don't invest more than you can afford to lose... so in my own mind, even if my investment drops by half or less, it's still better than nothing at all.
There are many things we all spend money on daily that never return anything. Why do some bitch and moan about crypto as if it's any different? :P
There are risks, sure, but it is also an investment, an asset, as opposed to a liability.
Alcohol users drink alochol that runs through their system, makes them feel good for a moment, then the moment passes. They have a memory, sure, but not all are good. They still continue to use it. They never receive anything back from that investment though, not financially anyhow. Yet they happily throw money into a pit. At least here, even if you invested $1,000 and lost 90%, you'd have $100 when all was said and done. If you spent $1,000 on alcohol, it would be gone. You lose 100% the second you drink the last of it.
Nice dinners and going out to eat are great, but the money is also gone instantly with no return. The food is gone when it's consumed and that's that. If you spend $200 a month on dinners, you get nothing back. You enjoy yourself, same idea as before, but that's it. Your steak never gives you cash back later on, not even a fraction of it's cost. lol. Short of having rewards back by having some credit card or membership deal of some sort, you're not getting nothing back for your investment beyond some momentary feelings of enjoyment.
Am I saying people shouldn't enjoy themselves? Not at all. :)
I'm saying that it's always a good time to invest in something you believe in.
People throw money away left and right daily, on any number of frivolous things. It only makes sense that something with potential to create more wealth, is a more sensible thing to spend your money on. That is, if you wish to have the potential for much more money. If you don't though, don't take chances, play it safe. Get a job and work a career and do things that way. Many do, no shame in it. :) There are other investment options that can give decent earnings. (Inflation protected bonds and such.)
TL;DR:
Yes, it's a great time to buy. :) Even if it reaches it's previous low, that's still down only half from the current price. I see steem making huge recoveries in price in the near future.
U were one if the buggest abusers, lol dan I hope u are fo real! lol
Regardless of my opinions on bid bots, this is precisely the kind of conflicts of interest that many of us were talking about when it was announced that you would be on STINC’s delegation committee...
That’s quite disgusting from an ethical standpoint. The fact that you didn’t even consider the ethics/conflicts with this is pretty remarkable and offers valuable insight into your character. I think @elipowell should be ashamed, but I know she’s not. Ethical behavior seems to be non-existent in most of crypto and particularly around this platform and its “leadership.”
Where’s the conflict? None of the bidbots receive delegations from steemit. What I’m talking about is running bidbots that don’t act ethically out of business. The delegation discussed here is whales putting Steem on these projects. It’s not Steemit based. Normally your trolling and negativity has at least a modicum of thoughtfulness. You should reread this with out your current distaste for me and realize how dumb you sound.
Bidbots are all unethical. Society is people, just like Soylent Green. Every bot vote is a degradation of humanity. A substantial reason Steem social media is not succeeding at retaining users is that users are not more competent at financial manipulation than automated mechanisms.
Worse, financial manipulation has been demonstrably established as the heart and soul of Steem. Social engineering is yet one skill people, such as ninjaminers, are better at than bots, and HF21 is evidence of that.
You have done a great deal for Steem society, and I laud you for it. Running a bidbot is not advancing Steem society, but degrading it, and I do not support you in that effort. In truth such profiteering is going to continue to decrease the price of Steem, user retention, and market cap until it is no longer practiced or Steem dies.
Steem has dropped over 50 places on CMC since I first told you that. I look forward to the day when you decide to end your support for bots and apply your considerable skill to supporting society - people - exclusively. Steem incorporates technology that enables voluntarist governance. Wasting that on mere economic gain is tragic.
People need to be empowered to effect their values as policies, and selling that power for tokens is unethical. That's what bots do. Please stop.
!dramatoken
Every bidbot vote is not unethical. You are confusing your own opinion with reality
@whatsup,
I'm with @valued-customer on this one.
What voting-based system could you name where the very definition of corruption is not "vote-buying?"
Either we want a Meritocracy or we don't. If we do, people cannot be allowed to buy votes. Imagine if one could simply buy the votes necessary to win a Nobel Prize or an Olympic Gold. What would such honors be worth ... absolutely nothing. They are ONLY worth something because they cannot be purchased. They have to be earned.
This is such a basic concept that I am flabbergasted that it even needs to be mentioned.
Go randomly pick 10 posts from Trending and choose the one you believe to be of the highest quality. Now go pick ANY post appearing on my blog. The best of the former vs the worst of mine. Now publish a post linking them both and ask your audience to decide which was better. Now compare the post payouts.
At what point ought one feel shame?
Although it hurts me to say, I have been ashamed of Steemit for a very long time.
Quill
I never thought the vision of Steem was to find the best post and make sure it earns the most.
I consider it a social media site where the "Owners" pick the winners. I am not arguing that they have done a good job with this.
I think many posts that end up on trending are important information or discussions.
I understand the point of view, I just think you have to make the assumption that everyone has the same goal as you do to consider it unethical.
I happen to think Steem is perfectly fair from a stakeholders point of view. I get to allocate exactly the correct percentage of the inflation pool as what I own.
I am not saying I think the stakeholders are making excellent choices.
If I hold more stake than I can vote with it is my possession and I should be allow to sell the bi-product of that (votes to whomever I please) AGAIN... Not saying it is going well. If they sell too many too often we end up where we are right now, no one wants to use it.
I guess the only thing I am saying is that it isn't as black and white as he claims.
DPOS I get it and it sounds good on paper, I just don't think I care for it.
It makes sense that the largest stakeholders decide the direction of a project, I just expected them to have more intelligence about what they are and are not good at. :)
@whatsup,
What you say is true (and articulately expressed).
Here's what's also true: A "product" has been created that no one wants, with the exception of the vote-buyers/sellers. Once everyone else leaves, which we are perilously close to, all those votes will be worthless ... as will be the SP that generates them.
It doesn't matter what's theoretically right or wrong if, pragmatically, it causes the entire system to crash.
You spoke of "owners" ... for that which is owned to be worth anything, there must be customers. This customer feels shafted and he is not alone. This cannot, and will not, go on for much longer.
Indeed, unless the Voice launch turns out to be an utter disaster (and @dan has more than enough money to ensure that it doesn't), September 23 may be the day that the STEEM/Steemit charade finally comes to an end.
It's too bad because I and a lot of other good people love this place. But enough is enough. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
I'm tired of feeling like an idiot.
Quill
@whatsup, you said,
Maybe that's the problem. When you start a project, it looks like it's the wrong way to get the biggest stakeholders first to decide what the functions should look like. Wouldn't it be wiser, if you want to create a good product/service, to really want to bring this product to its full potential first?
Everything seems to be the other way around here. First the investors and then the development up to the product maturity? That would be like putting a seedling in the soil and pumping it so full of fertilizer that it can yield a lot very quickly, although the fruit tastes much better when the process has enough time to get to the true goodness.
Take for example a service like WordPress or deepl.com. The former was an open source project and the developers were interested in the product and how to do it so well that you could be satisfied with it yourself.
Along the way, many minds have tried to make it good, just like with Linux. At deepl. I don't know how open source the whole thing was. But it was, similar to facebook and youtube, in an initially slow growth. While the users tried it, the developers learned to make changes and the programmers learned to write the code.
The investors came later: A company that wants to make first-class products chooses its investors well. These selected investors don't exist here. Anyone can join in and then say that they are an investor. On the basis of this logic, wouldn't one have to say that no matter how big a share someone holds, he should have the same voting entitlement?
Why should those with many shares be wiser than those with few? Or vice versa? It has nothing to do with intelligence, how much or how little I have. It's more about how well you want to make a product and whether you can imagine that the later beneficiaries will like it so much that it will inevitably develop into a mass market.
I find one can better rely on the intelligence of the many interested and curious ones instead of that of the largest stakeholders.
Society is comprised of people and enabling mechanisms to vote degrades society. It is not my confusion that engenders our disagreement.
Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!
To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.Let's set the record straight. Actually; you said you had a conflict of interest during a podcast interview.
I upvoted your post as I am no fan of upvote bots. I no longer auto-upvote, follow curation trails, or use upvote bots (I tried using BroRando, but did not do it right) though I have used them in the past. I do not agree with your aggressive threat.
Guess I will just add you to the list of bully oligarchs here on STEEM. By you own ultimatum you have earned that title. You have not only threatened the bid-bot owners to bend to your will but the delegaters as well (most who delegate are just minnows trying to make-it here on STEEM. Just like your PAL delegaters.) The statement above shows that you are under the impression that you are now running things. I warned others in the past, I am pretty good at reading people.
I realize that this is a DPOS platform. As a stake-holder myself I have an interest in this platform. @ats-david has also, in many ways (in the background) remained loyal to this platform.
After rereading your post I regret upvoting it. I should have read it better. I will leave my upvote as I am not an Indian-giver. I will take away my Bitmoji though as now after reading the whole thing better, I don't love it.
Kudos for your involvement in the side-chain steem-engine. I play with it myself. If all the notifications I get from GITHUB are any indication, it has pushed many to get the SMT thingy going. Everyone is also thankful for SteemMonsters/Spinterlands helping the Steem platform, but most of its success was due to crowd sourced work just like many projects here on STEEM.
If I have said anything that are believed to be unsubstantiated, by all means, set me straight. I said on numerous occasions in the Foundation server (both drunk and sober) that you would be a big part of the Foundation. Even this hog can find a truffle (truth) now and again.
@jerrybanfield may have been despised by many for various reasons, but at least there has never been any shame in his game nor did he ever flex his financial muscles and make public threats.
My distaste for you is not just "current."
Also...it's without. Only one word. It's compound.
Hard OOF!
!dramatoken
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Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!
To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.100% behind you on this
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I can think of a similar project that already deals with bid bot abuse.
Wonder why Aggroed seems to give SFR no consideration. Kind of disappointing to be honest.
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Whiner!!!
It's a valid grievance especially considering him being on the delegation theory.
Not a fan of bid bots at all, but holding them all accountable for voting unmitigated garbage is a step in the right direction. Add me to that downvote trail.
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Bidbots add nothing to the platform, and nothing to the general user. They are just a pariah-layer. But if some of them could be killed, fine with me.
There is no reasonable justification for bid bots when promotion mechanism can be cooked into a front end easily. Just needs to be a popular front end.
They are a vistigial structure no longer needed like snake stumps but their apologists will continue to try and perpetuate the lie that they are somehow good or an asset.
They are not. And I would say most likely the apologist has his or her hand in the cookie jar as well.
That's why I have mixed feeling about @aggroed as it seems he speaks out of both sides of his mouth at times.
This language I thought was peculiar
Considering @aggroed himself owns @lovejuice so I'm kind of at a loss as to why he would phrase it as if he were not among the group he is addressing.
I am tempted to think it's political maneuvering as if he wants to purport that he is not "one of them" and it seems to be working based on other responses.
I don't necessarily like to stir up shit but something isn't sitting well with me here.
The promotion tools were always broken, but they were actually meant to be one of the important ways to bring back value to the community. Right now the bidbots are just devaluing the community by pulling out money and becoming so filthy rich that they control the whole thing. I agree that voting down posts in trending that use bidbots (any bidbot) might be a way to do it. Maybe just start from the top every day.
I have never really flagged anyone for the last three years, but I have become a bit tired of the state of things.
I can see where you're coming from a little more clearly now. If he starts actually downvoting stuff that I would probably downvote myself, I would be happy with that as compared to before. It's incremental progress that we can build on. If this is just signaling virtue to prop up his own bot, my respect meter would drop appropriately. I would hope that his threat against bid bot abuse would include actually collaborating with the existing community already working towards that end.
Ah yes, because a group of "businesses", where most can't be bothered to come up with what they shouldn't upvote, would totally be responsible with their free downvoting power as well.
I meant the Aggroed downvote trail, but okay. If bot owners want to make their downvote power available to downvote themselves, who am I to stop them? lol
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Now, you are thinking with Portals.
You have and still can or need to join a club to get votes. If I do not join communities, am not working my ass of by commenting each post I read (with my mobile phone) no one will notice me or vote any of my posts.
The bidbots are not the main problem here but the fact this platform is not rewarding good content. It is an illusion they do. Ask the writers, the real ones and you know it is not true.
You can write a week over a good article or story and earn 0.
You can post 1 line plus link and have the jackpot here.
According to Steemit inc good content is 20$ or more. You earn less? You write shit to their opinion.
Without some big whales or a community voting for you, you are a loser here and the bit you earn can be taken away by being flagged for no reason.
Why? Because this is a place for investors. They have to earn the rest, we, are (we're) the bait to make it more interesting.
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They said 20 Steem worth not $20 but still. I hear ya
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I do not have a Steem sign on my keyboard and this is exactly what is shown to me if I see the earnings the $ sign. We all know what that means and what it means to Steemit.
Thanks for hearing me, I appreciate it you took the time to answer.
Pity so far no one can tell me what is the great thing about steem, why joining the platform. I hope someone will.
We promoted like idiots also during #seven77 and I ask myself why.
💕
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The difference between recognizing an error and justifying/excusing an error.
You know what is a great thing about steem? Even someone who doesn't care for correcting their errors (and ergo their premise built on those errors) and holds such a poor opinion of this place, the major stakeholders and the majority of people here, still has the potential to earn. In other words, you, the self titled idiots.
Thank you for your kind words. I really appreciate it you took the time to encourage me.
I wish you a great day 💕
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Thanks for your sarcasm, may you burn in emoji hell.
Thank you. Add some hell of a pain to it and I know the reason why.
I wish you a great life and steeming day without critics and comments. 💕
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You're welcome.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, only worse.
Thanks!
Here you are, still trying put your wedge into any little crevice you can find to further your mo of spreading FUD.
@aggroed,
No comments, just $trdo
Cheers~
Congratulations @theguruasia, you are successfuly trended the post that shared by @aggroed!
@aggroed got 6 TRDO & @theguruasia got 4 TRDO!
"Call TRDO, Your Comment Worth Something!"
To view or trade TRDO go to steem-engine.com
Token distribution bot developed by @ali-h
Now, if only they would read this. They won't.
They won't notice until their profits are hurting. Until the bot's rep is taking a hit, etc.