As a top steem witness, will you support a hardfork implementing the “Economic Improvement Proposal” or “EIP.”
As a top steem witness, will you support a hardfork implementing the “Economic Improvement Proposal” or “EIP.”
As mentioned in this post by Steemit Inc:
The EIP has 3 components all of which we believe must be implemented in tandem in order to deliver the desired effect. If you’re interested in learning more about the rewards curve and the options for improving it, @vandeberg (Senior Blockchain Engineer at Steemit) has published a more technical exploration of the subject.
Moving from a linear rewards curve to a convergent linear rewards curve. A convergent linear rewards curve would start out superlinear, providing minimal gains at first, and smoothly become linear as more votes are made. Users that are interested only in maximizing the return on their Steem Power, instead of benefitting the platform through thoughtful curation, often engage in practices such as self voting or delegation to bid bots. The proposed curve incentivises concentration of votes on to fewer pieces of content, which increases the visibility of such counterproductive behavior. Alternatively, users could choose to act more subtly by spreading stake across more, but smaller, votes at the cost of a suboptimal return. We cannot eliminate such behavior entirely, but we can make it less economically viable.
Increasing the percentage of rewards that are distributed to curators. One of the problems with Steem as it stands is that there is a strong incentive to self-vote. The more rewards are distributed to curators the less incentive there is to self-vote. At the same time, if curation is improved, then those content creators who are currently submitting great content which isn’t getting seen, should stand to benefit as that content will be more likely to get unearthed.
Create a separate “downvote pool.” Downvotes are a critical component for regulating Steem, but there is no incentive to render them because they are not rewarded. In fact, they cost voting mana which disincentivizes the use of the downvote. This creates more opportunities for self-voting abuse as it reduces the likelihood that this behavior will be countered. By adding a small pool for downvotes that is consumed prior to consuming voting mana, users are more free to downvote content as a curation mechanism without losing out on potential rewards themselves.
The parameters that you, as a witness, are agreeing with when voting YES are:
- Increase curation rewards to 50%
- Use a convergent linear rewards curve (n^2/Cn+1)
- Use a separate downvote pool of roughly 25%
- YES
- NO
Answer the question at dpoll.xyz.
Voted for
I don't entirely agree with this proposal, but overall it shows promise.
1 (curation rewards) - This is the part I'm mostly concerned about. As @drakos mentioned, the psychological impact on authors having 50% of their post rewards go to other people could negatively impact authors willing to post.
This also aggravates bid bots, because now bid bots will be getting massive curation returns from their votes, and thus getting even more powerful. This in effect counteracts points 2 and 3, since by strengthening the returns for bid bots, it may reduce the cost of them - potentially cancelling out the other changes that would by themselves reduce the viability of bid bots.
As suggested by @anyx - having this be a witness parameter would help avoid future hard forks, witnesses would be able to adjust it over time in response to any positive or negative effects on author activity and curation.
2 (convergent linear rewards) - Overall I agree with this, it's difficult to see how this would affect authors in the long term, since it may deter authors with a smaller following.
At the same time it could help limit the current power that bid bots have over post rewards, keeping more of the reward pool available to authors who don't use bid bots.
Something that we may only find out after it's implemented, is how well this stands up to the fact that there are many bid bots available with high voting power, and when people use several of them on a single post then the curve may simply return to linear.
3 (downvote pool) - This is a definite YES. There is currently no benefit to downvoting a post. Skilled curators who often find the best and worst content, would generally prefer to conserve their voting mana for the good posts rather than waste it on downvoting poor content.
A downvote pool would help to encourage people to downvote illegal, low quality or plagairized content without worrying about it affecting their upvote power. This has been a commonly requested idea for a long time now - it's worth at least trying it out.
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Voted for
@crimsonclad and I have spoken about this in great length,among ourselves and with other's.
I believe @crimsonclad will make statement here and explain in more detail our thinking.
As posted in a few discussions:
I find it difficult to answer with a "yes or no" on this. To me, the fact that we've moved away from the discussion of SPS, and especially, looking at inflation, is a bit bothersome. This is the projected HF we have in front of it, and I would love to see it roll out with with funding that amounts to more than a "maybe" promise from Steemit Inc to put a tiny bit in the kitty to start.
FBN and I have talked about this at length, and I think in general we both agree with most of the things in the EIP package but they will also require some further considerations from both front ends and users to go along with base code or they won't mean much. While I don't finally speak for him, I myself just am not sure that all of them together, crammed in all at once, and attached to this upcoming HF is the way I want to approach it. We've been beating around the bush on this shit for years now, and we've got something the entire community (conceivably) wants and needs on deck with the SPS that still needs some attention to launch at it's most effective given the circumstances. I don't want to see the EIP suddenly suggested as a magic bullet HF that overshadows the fact that if we put the SPS in place we still haven't actually come together in a way that says "we as leadership have at least talked through the best possible ways to fund this so it will live and actually do the thing."
Long winded message out of the way, I think downvotes are the most important part of the package, so I am leaning towards a tentative yes, though I am not fully convinced that all at once and all right now is the right way to go. I think the curve and the 50:50 will not have as much impact as we hope, but I also hope to be proven dead wrong about that. I would not block this for spite. It's still trying to fix things, and as such being limited to a yes or no here doesn't really convey our opinions well.
We need a glossary of acronyms and steem specific lingo, within a framework of general terminology regarding blockchain and crypto.. Just a side note.
Also good to see you poke your head out @crimsonclad
Voted for
Still not a fan of 50% curation. I think the authors deserve more rewards.
Seems like Near zero curation is being done manually just before the 15min, all automated, it could get way way worst. With 50:50, author will definitely get less
Automated votes before 15 minutes are perfectly fine. It benefits everyone else because it puts a share of curation reward back into the pool. The idea is that if it is so obvious that content is worth many votes (for example, based on author track record) within a short time, it doesn't didn't take much skill or effort to identify, and doesn't deserve much curation reward, and that cost is better spent elsewhere. This is equally true whether those votes are automated or not, perhaps even more so if automated.
My view is that the 15 minutes should be much shorter. Automated votes can still do their job of putting funds back into the pool on the no-brainer votes and it would get out of the way of human voters for all other cases.
50/50 suppose to fix that. 50/50 will make Steem more attractive to buy, power up, and curate.
They never seem to get this part. Wierd.
It only happens when I'm too lazy to wait ;-) Still doing a lot of manual curating (with some auto mixed in) nearly three years into it. Loving this thread, good exchange of ideas for steem.
That’s on paper. Desired effect of the entire EIP is to encourage content reflective voting behavior, so it’s expected that authors would get more in the end, improving content discovery, and in turn, better valuation for the network. What’s the point of authors getting more on paper if voting behaviour is currently so terrible, contributing to a declining demand for Steem itself? That’s not really getting more. Plus authors can also enjoy similar benefits using their SP for curation.
Seems reasonable, my first thought is large temporary delegations in the short term could create great incentive for small accounts to be engaging curators. Best of both worlds
I dont know if it is possible, but i am a fan of a curation slider. It is similar to beneficiaries sliders in my opinion. Some groups can demand higher or lower, aithors get final say. Min 25 max 100 go.
I know there are more important things in the world like feeding starving children. There are probably more important things to do on steem, but these seem like simple issues.
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It's already working on Golos, which is Steem fork, so yes, it's possible.
Golos is completely dead.
So, even completely dead project could manage to implement this feature.
A completely dead project could implement a automated gif with a hitler speech and noone would notice it. 😁
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All I wanted to say is slider for curation rewards isn't rocket science.
Its not. But a curation slider wouldnt do much. You just open a venue for more arragements under the table.
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with 50/50 curation reward more will be willing to buy Steem and use for curating. As it is right now more people incentivized to self vote, sell and exchange votes. In the end, it will benefit the authors more as they will potentially receive more upvotes. Moreover, the authors will be incentivized to upvote those who comment on their posts and engage with them. I don't understand why people don't see this.
Why do you think people care about curation? Most of the crypto market doesnt care about much outside ROI. Why do you think they would care about voting up deserving creators?
I dont understand why you think others share your interests.
But, do you not think by increasing curation rewards more votes will be made to offset it?
That's the idea behind 50% curation, but I don't think it would necessarily be a guaranteed outcome. Let's say an artist is blogging regularly and getting consistent support from regular curators. The audience is stable. If the author reward gets slashed from 75% to 50% it would demotivate the author more than guarantee a bigger audience or curators.
It's also a psychological factor: others getting more rewards for the work of the author! It doesn't make sense.
Another thing is the platform is growing, so curators are faced with more content to discover than to curate the current user base. To curators, it wouldn't really matter who/what they vote for, they would still get 50%. So when the user base increases, the support to that particular artist will be diluted. Therefore the artist will be on the losing side in the long run while curators reap more profits.
I personally don't care about my curation rewards, my joy comes from the work of people I support. I think curators greed may be driving that push for 50% which I find very steep. Perhaps 30% curation would be a good start to try that idea instead of doing a full blown cut on author rewards.
I didn't see you consider a situation where the platform is declining?
Imo, as an active daily Steem user, we need to fix content discovery at all costs. If we don't and competitor comes up that actually does reward content based on quality, this place probably will be forgotten so fast, it'll be like snapping fingers. We don't have a lot of time. And let's be real, look at our adoption rates, something is clearly wrong and keeping the same set of rules, in my mind, for that reason alone isn't a reason. After all, this place is paying for authors, yet they're joining in small numbers and most even leave after a while. So it's mind boggling to me how some want to keep the current system.
I've been Steemian for over 2 years but I'm powering down and selling in case this EIP is not implemented, as that's a clear sign that the users are actually happy with the current situation, and I cannot say the same, at all. Someone will get it right eventually, and I'm supporting the ones willing to try and I've heard there's one coming soon with major backing.
Edit: Oh, I can see you're powering down as well. It seems to be common these days, cheers.
You are probably right with the idea that a small increase would be good to see if it was having the desired effect. Maybe a 50% jump would be too big at this point especially with autovotes in play. But, I would be happy to share more of my post rewards with people that were interacting on my posts organically. I do think that we have to find a way to encourage more curation and reading of posts on the platform.
Agreed
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This and this:
I saw that as the driving factor from day 1. Im a smaller account then you and i vote stuff i find enjoyable, i never calculate before i vote, i care little if my VP goes down..
My behavior will not change and i dont think the behavior of those that are using the platform "as intended" will either.
Firstly I am concerned about the stagnant state of Steem, doing nothing has a greater cost imo. A change to the economy could be the fresh catalyst that brings about reform and better Steem prices for stakeholders.
BuildTeam services such as DLease and Steemvoter will benefit from this, but I am cautious about making this change and would rather see more focus on the SPS (DAO); a change to the rewards as well as a further hit from inflation source funding to the DAO would be too much and would create too much fricition, confusion, unrest and rage quitting in the community rather than focussing on coming together to make worker proposals successful.
In saying that if majority of witnesses go with this, I will follow suit as it does have potential upsides and only by trying do we know, we could alway revert back if it sucks.
Agree
I think this is fine, I also agree with @anyx that it should be a witness parameter, 25% is a very standard figure and may not be the right % and may need some tweaking over time to get it right.
This applies to everything. Actually the most important thing in this whole story.
Glad you brought up the DAO. If a DAO inflation drain happens with the 50/50, Steem is literally dead. You might as well just move to paying out inflation to stake holders.
Personally, I think it is too much to lump in one HF, the DAO should happen first, maybe combined with the downvote pool and then let users get used to that and make the DAO a success before doing any other changes.
Rage quitting will never die, it's entertainment value is unequalled..
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Voted for
There are many sides to this discussion and I agree with @anyx that putting everything into one bill makes it very hard to isolate the changes for themselves.
I want a downvote pool and 25% sounds reasonable.
Curation rewards at 50% sounds fine to me, the argument there is from both sides pretty much the same. It can be better or it can be worse, but the system will balance itself. If it reduces self votes and brings content creators in, then I am happy.
The rewards curve is in my opinion the most controversial and the most hard decision. I like a linear curve as it makes it easier to predict what will happen and simplicity is a winning point. But I also like the anti abuse factor of a different curve. All the while that will kick the smaller creators who won't earn that much and will now be double left in the rain when you add curation reward changes and downvotes.
I think we need bold moves to get this system out of the bitterness and entrenchment it currently is in. These changes will do just that. We might have to do another bill next year but incremental changes are something I can get behind.
if this is right we would be even more excluding the most important part that this platform needs. more new people that would stay here. as an introvert i do like small groups of people but a social network with 500 people is a bit ridiculous :)
Voted for
While I am strongly in favor of adding a separate downvote pool, I have to vote "NO" as this is being presented as an all or nothing option.
I am not at all confident that the change to 50% curation rewards is a good idea, and may even possibly turn out to be a very bad idea. In addition, I think we should focus our limited resources on the most important things, and in my opinion there are many more important things to focus on than the posting/voting reward distribution numbers, which, in the scheme of things, are only understood or matter to an extremely small number of people.
Obviously, if the majority of the top witnesses feel differently and choose to approve this change I will support it fully and do my best to ensure that the hard fork is sufficiently tested and rolled out smoothly, however I wanted to take this opportunity to let the community know my stance on these proposed changes.
I agree that 50% curation could turn out to be a bad idea. As a content creator i feel that the loss in post rewards is biger than any gains in curation and extra votes.
I would like to suggest a change in the distribution of curation rewards within the existing 25% system instead. If early voters (like in the first 30 minutes) would get an even bigger share than they do now, you would shift curation rewards from vote sellers to actual curators and by doing so stimulate curation as well.
If voting bots were not to cast votes within those 30 minutes, users would be stimulated to beat the bots and vote early. Users from bots who do not comply to this 30 minute rule could be corrected from downvotes from the coming downvote pool.
I think this would create the same results, without harming content creators.
I am not a big fan of 50% curation reward. But I also think increasing curation reward has no substantial benefits neither has critical harms.
Regardless of curation reward, an important issue we are facing is broken contents discovery and rewarding system due to brainless curation. I think 2 and 3 may give some chances to resolve this issue. If this solution does not work, I will strongly insist to separate investor's reward from content's reward with the launch of SMTs.
In sum, my answer is YES.
I'm leaning in favor of the package.
I'm not going to 100% commit to anything until there is specific code and I'm deciding whether to run it.
Voted for YES
Voted for
@ocd-witness votes yes.